If Ithuriel Actually Would Be Derren Brown, However, Introduce Away.

[rionaleonhart]

There are probably quite a few things to be said about this episode, but all I can really say about it is asdjkahjhgjdgh fandom! Fandom leaping onto the screen! I would have preferred a slightly more clear definition of 'slash', as someone unfamiliar with the term could easily go away thinking it specifically means incest, and I know that some of you were made very uncomfortable by the references, but in all I was rather delighted; I do love being made fun of, and it didn't seem mean-spirited. Although that must have been really confusing for people who are not in fandom. Part of an episode written in our language! What madness is this?

Man, I can't just make a one-paragraph entry! What else can I say? I don't want to talk about unrelated topics outside the cut, because then people who haven't seen the Supernatural episode may try to comment and catch sight of the bit beneath the cut and be spoiled.

I KNOW: I SHALL TALK ABOUT ANGELIC DERREN BROWN. (I am attempting to write the fic about the adventures of Derren and Castiel. I just don't know what to do with it.) Sorry, people with no interest in Derren. Feel free to skip the rest of this entry.

I think that Derren is a dissident angel, but not one who wants to bring about the Apocalypse; just one who does not believe in God and does not carry out his orders if he doesn't feel like it. He doesn't dislike humanity; in fact, he absolutely loves it and spends far more time than his superiors realise on Earth. He has no plans to fall, which appears to be a conscious decision in the world of Supernatural; he likes his grace just where it is, thank you very much. Losing his angelic powers would make playing with humans much less fun. Disobedience, however, is punishable by death amongst angels, so if Derren isn't going to fall he has to keep his atheism and frequent excursions to inflict angelic weirdness upon unsuspecting humans very quiet. Possibly he can manipulate other angels into forgetting or deciding to leave him alone if he lets something slip.

Also, Derren probably has sex whilst he is in human form, which I am sure angels frown upon. What I am trying to work out is how he would treat the possessing-a-human-body aspect of it, because obviously having sex using a body one has possessed raises many uncomfortable moral questions. I don't think he would ignore the host's situation entirely, but I'm not sure he would go the possessing-a-corpse route. Perhaps he would in some way blank out the host's consciousness whilst doing things with which the host would probably be uncomfortable, which is still morally questionable but not entirely reprehensible. MUCH LIKE MOST OF DERREN BROWN'S ACTUAL WORK.

Derren-as-Ithuriel is definitely going onto my list of Characters Who Totally Exist In The Supernatural Universe, Good Luck Convincing My Mind Otherwise. Delaware Singer is the only other character on that list at the moment, but I am sure it will grow. (Now I just have to hope that Supernatural does not actually introduce an Ithuriel, because if they do and he is not Derren Brown I shall cry.)

Comments

[rionaleonhart]

It's not the same if the one-night stand hasn't met the non-possessed host before, because in that case they've only spoken to the angel; the only aspect of the host that's involved, from their perspective, is his physical appearance.

Also, what angels seem to generally do is possess one body and then use that body for all their purposes on Earth, so the host would be possessed at all times (not sure what would happen when the angel wasn't on Earth; they seem to disappear, host body and all, when they leave) and there would be no awkward conversations (for the host, at any rate). If the host were thinking 'hey, that's my old boss', though, I'm sure Ithuriel would be able to pick up on that and avoid potentially uncomfortable sexual situations. (Or deliberately pursue them, just for his own amusement.)

[vzg.livejournal.com]

Well, that just seems sort of skeevy in its own right!

[rionaleonhart]

Which part? (There is a general skeeviness about both Derren Brown and angels in Supernatural, so combining the two is likely to result in quite a lot of skeeve.)

[rionaleonhart]

(I should probably mention that angels in Supernatural - or Castiel, at least - possess devout humans who have prayed to be a vessel for an angel. Which makes things slightly less disturbing. Possibly.)

[vzg.livejournal.com]

Slightly. But it's also a little disturbing that they want to give up their lives completely to them. (Like in Dollhouse!)

[rionaleonhart]

I think Supernatural is generally trying to make angels a little bit questionable. Which is a problem when I want to keep angelic!Derren's behaviour a step beneath 'completely inexcusable' whilst still keeping him both appropriately Derrenish and appropriately angelic.

[uk-sef.livejournal.com]

It seems to be very much like the In Nomine FRP/RPG, in which both angels and demons are evil (by my standards).

[lasayla.livejournal.com]

Angel!Derren doesn't play by the rules, so he doesn't necessarily need to abide by the 'only one body' and 'body vanishes when you leave' rules, right?

If he could find an existing couple and swap between them on an ad-hoc basis you could turn this from 'skeevy consent issues' to 'extremely complicated threesome'.

There needs to be an epic three fandom crossoverfic about a threesome where there are only two people involved, but at any moment, without warning, one of them could be Derren Brown. You'd have all the crackiness of your average bodyswap story, but with the added bonus of Amazing Mind Powers^TM and the Supernatural canon.

The only real question is which fandom the pre-existing couple should be yoinked from...

[rionaleonhart]

I suppose he doesn't have to abide by the 'only one body' rule, but I like to think he does, because in my mind angelic-Derren's host looks like the Derren Brown of our world.

Ahahaha, that 'extremely complicated threesome' idea is rather brilliant. Write it! Wait, do you watch Supernatural? WRITE IT ANYWAY.

[uk-sef.livejournal.com]

Since demons aren't fallen angels (as established from the fallen angel undercover as human girl episode), are they: a separate supernatural species; the evil subset of the same species who have lost their own singular bodies and are stuck with possession as the only option; damned ex-humans who've gone down a different route from being ghosts?

If angels have their own bodies which vanish when not being used (like In Nomine again!) then how come they need volunteer human hosts to possess at all (ie as previously mentioned on this entry)? Do only some angels ever have magic bodies or have others lost theirs or decided not to use them?

[rionaleonhart]

Apart from Lucifer, who actually is a fallen angel, demons appear to be humans who lost their humanity in Hell (see 'Malleus Maleficarum').

Angels need human hosts if they want to interact with the human world, as their true forms burn out human eyes. Which is a bit unfortunate. They seem to be able to teleport around in their human hosts, though.

How much Supernatural have you watched? I assume you've at least seen 'Heaven and Hell', as you refer to Anna.

[uk-sef.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I've only seen very small amounts (in passing / channel-hopping) of a few of the later episodes (it being only relatively recently that I got access to a channel showing any of it at all!). However, the last couple of weeks I did make an actual effort to watch the programme - hence having seen the Anna story (I didn't know the title).

[uk-sef.livejournal.com]

If demons are humans, how did they get the magic powers? Are only some humans (ie latently magical ones) capable of becoming demons, regardless of evilness? Having a hell seems to be a bad policy if it creates demons from non-demons (ie otherwise powerless ex-humans) rather than merely being a place demons like to hang out!

Is there some cut-off level of loss of humanity which makes someone a demon, or is it more of a continuum (with some demons capable of being barely demonic at all)? Could living humans technically count as demons (if they have sufficient magic powers and the evilness)? Eg Sam (who I gather does have some magic) and Dean (who's apparently been dead and in hell) themselves.

[rionaleonhart]

Good question about the powers! I don't actually know. In 'Malleus Maleficarum' Ruby implies that every soul in Hell eventually becomes demonic. Apparently, being in Hell for long enough gives one magical powers.

I don't know about a continuum. Some demons are certainly more powerful than others, but what makes them more powerful is not clear. One demon whom Sam and Dean sent back to Hell reappeared about a year later with new abilities, so perhaps demonic powers can be learnt.

There have been hints of Sam, who ingested demon blood as a baby and gained psychic powers as a result, becoming demonic: little moments when his eyes turn black or yellow (both eye colours connected to demons). Dean doesn't appear to be demonic, perhaps because he was dragged out of Hell too quickly to lose his humanity.

Ruby is an interesting case: she's a demon who has frequently helped the Winchesters. She claims it's because she can still remember what it's like to be human, but her motives aren't entirely clear at this point.

[uk-sef.livejournal.com]

I didn't know that about Sam and demon blood. Aside: how can they have demon blood at all if they're not proper physical entities but merely borrow human bodies?

However, Dean himself claimed (at least by implication) that he'd lost (some of) his humanity in hell - by giving in and becoming a torturer and (most damningly) even enjoying it.

Ruby is indeed the level of greyness in demons I was considering.

[lasayla.livejournal.com]

If our Derren Brown is Angel!Derren's host body, then when did the posession take place? Because you could totally write this as either 'Coops notices that Derren is not himself lately' or as 'Behold, the reason for Derren's massive theological shift!'

I have never seen a single episode of Supernatural. My entire knowledge of the canon comes from that one fanfic where one of the Winchesters swaps bodies with Jeremy Clarkson.

[rionaleonhart]

DERREN BROWN BECAME AN ATHEIST BECAUSE HE WAS POSSESSED BY AN ANGEL. I don't know why I didn't realise it before!

The possession probably marked the beginning of Derren's interest in 'psychological techniques', also known as angelic mindfucking. (There's an episode in which angels completely replace the Winchesters' memories with memories of being ordinary office workers. I think that sounds exactly the sort of thing Derren Brown would do.)