rionaleonhart: final fantasy x-2: the sun is rising, yuna looks to the future. (don't cross me)
Riona ([personal profile] rionaleonhart) wrote2010-08-03 04:10 pm

Yes, I've Genuinely Been Waiting For This Age To Make This Entry.

I turned twenty-two a few weeks ago, and so it seems an appropriate time to post about something that's been troubling me: the ages of female characters in the Final Fantasy series. And videogames in general, and media in general, really, but I'm using the Final Fantasy series in particular to illustrate this problem.

About a year ago, [livejournal.com profile] rimon made an entry asking about the sorts of female characters people wanted to see in videogames. Considering this made me realise that, whilst I could easily name a few significant male videogame characters over thirty, thinking of female characters in the same age range was considerably more tricky.

Curious, I looked up all the humanoid main-party characters in the main-series games from Final Fantasy IV to Final Fantasy XII, disregarding characters such as Fran, who is more than fifty years old but looks much younger on account of not being human.

The ages of the male characters ranged from five to seventy.

The ages of the female characters ranged from five to twenty-two.

I love the Final Fantasy series, but this is ridiculous. Beatrix from IX is twenty-eight (and awesome!) and Edea from VIII must be over thirty, but both of these are temporary party members, playable only very briefly. Permanently playable male characters over the age of twenty-two, meanwhile, include Edward, Edge, Yang, Cid (IV), Tellah, Galuf, Locke, Edgar, Sabin, Setzer, Cyan, Strago, Vincent, Cid (VII), Barret, Amarant, Steiner, Wakka, Auron and Basch. That's at least one playable male character older than the oldest female characters in the entire series (Aeris and Lulu*) in every one of these games bar VIII.

And that bothers me. Why do the women always have to be young and pretty? I do love most of the ladies of Final Fantasy, and I don't think for a moment that they're there solely to be attractive; they're characters, with strengths and flaws and insecurities and roles in the plot. But they're limited in age and appearance, and there's no reason for them not to be as physically varied as the men.

I'm not saying that videogames have to stop having young, pretty women in their casts, but would it be too much trouble to include the occasional female character who deviates from that template? Really, now. I don't want to feel that I'm going to be past saving the world from a giant flying whale in a mere twelve months.


* I always thought Lulu was around thirty. I was astonished to realise she was only twenty-two. I mentally age both Lulu and the eighteen-year-old Quistis up eight years when I'm playing their games.

Lulu doesn't look twenty-two, so why make her twenty-two? There's no reason for her not to be thirty. Wakka doesn't look twenty-three, either, so he could have been aged up as well had their romance been a concern.

And, of course, in Final Fantasy X-2 Lulu is twenty-four and, ta-da, no longer a playable character. TWENTY-TWO IS THE ABSOLUTE CUTOFF FOR LADIES TO HAVE ADVENTURES. HERE, HAVE AN EIGHTEEN-YEAR-OLD INSTEAD. I do like Paine very much, but the way in which Lulu is sidelined does seem a bit odd.

Re: Wow, there's a LOT of interesting stuff there.

[identity profile] sour-idealist.livejournal.com 2010-08-06 03:15 am (UTC)(link)
As to Snow's character development: again, right with you. And something in the other post - although, yes, Nora died, she was still a really key part of the story.

As to the feminine=weak assumption, I knew that wasn't what you meant, but some things carried the connotation.

As to Tifa, I thought the whole "A memory, or us?" conversation in Advent Children was an understated, but distinct, loss of her patience. Yes, she's saying she wants to help him, but she's also telling him to cut the crap. Yes, it is to dolphin-kicking his ass as a haiku is to the Odyssey , but both are valid.

I know we can't draw conclusions on Stella yet, but the incoming data look good. And honestly, they've fed us the names of exactly two characters, and one of them is that of the protagonist. I'm betting more girls will show up, especially as I understand there's a bit of a tradition of having three girls to the party, and it seems they're going to some effort to stick to that.

As to the other post, that's an interesting and disturbing detail about the Sorceresses/Witches. As to Lucrecia being a submissive follower in DoC, I haven't played the game, but isn't that presented as a really bad thing?

[identity profile] amy-wolf.livejournal.com 2010-08-06 08:37 am (UTC)(link)
This gets to one of the things that I'm uncomfortable with on the "male gaze"/"female gaze" distinction - it's very heteronormative. Liking to look at attractive women and not being interested in shirtless men doesn't make me male. It's tricky, because nearly everything in the media that plays in female attractiveness is aimed at men, and most things that play on male attractiveness are aimed at women, and I don't know any conveniently snappy non-heteronormative phrases to use instead, but it still seems to buy into the "Woman=enjoys shirtless Edward Cullen" and "Likes looking at a woman in a low-cute top=man" assumption, and that bothers me.

Re: Wow, there's a LOT of interesting stuff there.

[identity profile] imadra-blue.livejournal.com 2010-08-06 08:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree Nora was far more key than previous mothers portrayed in the series, but the lack of name for her in introduction and death scenes was notable, since Hope was not itnroduced as "boy" but by his name. And I personally enjoyed the significance of her name.

Oh, I agree the connotation can be found in my argument. Unfortunately, it's very common, since it is the assumption most make about femininity.

Hmm, you have a point about Tifa's statement. I think I need to review both the OGC and AC with this in mind (oh, the horror, to play FF7 again ;)). Though I will always be sympathetic to Yuffie's utter lack of subtlety when she shows up with pointed signs and phone calls both Cloud and Vincent incessantly and constantly tries to crack their shells. That's my girl!

You do have a point about there being more girls, especially since it seems FF Vs. 13 will be a party system! It's just that all we've seen in trailers is one female--that alone tells me something about S-E's marketing department, at least. I do like that Nomura promises Stella will have an unusual role and be unlike other S-E females. This could go badly or it could go really well, but it shows he's aware of something in previous installments. One thing I love about S-E is that they seem to be waking up (unlike the Western companies who keep complaining that they don't use more females because it's more time-consuming and costly--that makes me want to punch them in their face SO HARD).

I added an ETA to the post as I had an interesting conversation with someone who saw the Sorceresses much different than I and believes they're not so negative a presentation of women. I still maintain there's problems, but their views seems quite valid, as well.

And yes, Lucrecia being a follower is presented as a bad thing, but it yet again underscores a notion that being only a poor woman, no wonder she caved to the stress around her. Then again, I'm still resentful of Lucrecia's presentation in DoC. They turned her into Aerith-in-a-labcoat and robbed the character of all self-determination and taking responsibility for her actions. We're supposed to feel sorry for her, I suppose, but I didn't--instead I was angry she never had the strength to stand up to anyone directly. I would have felt sorry for her if she intentionally made mistakes and then felt bad for them (indeed, that would have made her very identifiable to me). Instead, she looks like an overly emotional woman who caved to Hojo and then to her guilt and lacked the strength to face her own mistakes--leaving Vincent, a male, to clean up her mess. At least in the OGC, her locking herself up in crystal seemed like her punishing herself for something she did rather than something others pushed her into. DoC makes her look like all she did her whole life was capitulate. It bugged me big time.

[identity profile] imadra-blue.livejournal.com 2010-08-06 09:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I would love to see a Final Fantasy game in which the three females in your party (there are always three) aren't divided up into the three archetypes: the lead (most feminine; love interest; dedicated to a cause or a person; driving force in plot), the older woman (reserved and worldly; voice of reason; don't ask her personal questions or you will endure bodily harm), and the girl (perky and bubbly; extremely emotional; inevitably under 18). I am so tired of this pattern it hurts.

Then you'll want to play Final Fantasy XIII, which broke up the pattern. Of them, Vanille is most like the perky girl archetype, but has some backstory that sets her apart from, say, Rikku or Penelo or Yuffie or Selphie, but Fang and Lightning do not fit the other two archetypes. The game is imperfect in design, but I cannot complain about the playable female characters at all. None are love interests (the only female love interest in the game is a NPC). The wide-eyed magic-using ingenue is male. Below, I describe the three ladies. There's minor spoilers, but I tried to keep it generic.

Lightning: Technically speaking, the lead, though the game. No love interest. Dedicated to saving her sister and later the world. Decidedly unfeminine--very militaristic and frequently punches people when angry. 21. NOT the voice of reason--in fact, her anger leads a male in the party to an action that leads to violence. Can be remarkably unsympathetic and is extremely driven.

Fang: Also 21. Kinda crazy. Fight-happy. Smartassed. Worldly, but not reserved. Willing to "tear down the sky" to save her female companion. Strongest member of the party. NOT the voice of reason. In fact, her anger and determination to save her female companion at all costs nearly leads to the entire party's and the world's destruction. Has more experience than the other party members. No love interest!

Vanille: Aged 19. Perky and bubbly--but this is part of her sham to keep up others' spirits. Often lies to protect others and winds up causing more harm than good with these lies. Is emotional. Has more experience than the other party members. Also no love interest, and the one time one of the guys (accidentally) checks her out, his bird cockblocks him. XD

[identity profile] eva-kasumi.livejournal.com 2010-08-07 01:59 am (UTC)(link)
I have played it, and I thought about mentioning it as the exception to what I described, but I didn't because, to be honest, I hate it. I do appreciate that it has a female lead, and I do like that Lightning and Fang are your tanks and I like their characters in principle, and I do like that Hope is your healer and that none of the lead girls are love interests (I also loved this about XII). But I don't think the characters are well-rounded at all; they feel more like facades of interesting characters, and it is frustrating because I see how Lightning and Fang and Hope and everyone could be awesome, if only the game let them develop as real people instead of through stock cliche "growth" dialogue that I've seen a hundred times before in every other JRPG I've ever played and that feels entirely unjustified within the plot. Sorry for the rant, this game is just a huge pet peeve of mine at the moment because there was SO MUCH that it did that could have been amazing, and instead it just did all of it badly.

[identity profile] eva-kasumi.livejournal.com 2010-08-07 02:04 am (UTC)(link)
Freya is twenty-one? Freya is twenty-one? What the hell? MAYBE IT IS A TYPO. MAYBE THEY MEANT THIRTY-ONE. I am just going to believe this, it will make me happier.

I agree, Freya is interesting as one of the few female characters who is basically non-sexualized. I'm not sure what it means that a female character has to be a rat in order to be non-sexualized. =/ Then again, most of the male human characters in FF are sexualized as well, but not nearly to the same degree as the females. There has been an increasing lack of shirts for men, though. I can't say I disapprove.

[identity profile] imadra-blue.livejournal.com 2010-08-07 02:22 am (UTC)(link)
Well, to be fair, I didn't say the game was perfect, nor that you had to like it. I was just pointing out that it broke up the pattern, and the lack of mention made me think you hadn't played it. :)

In response to your opinion, well. I agree FF13 had its disappointments, but I thought it had better characterization than, say, Final Fantasy X, which is my personal pet peeve and I keep stopping about 40% of the way in from dislike of its characters (Tidus and Wakka, mostly--I thought the females were just rehashes of previous FF incarnations, personally). I also had problems with Final Fantasy XII and its rather poor character development (and so many stock fantasy tropes, too), though I did at least enjoy that game and some of its wonderful ideas, so I did finish it. I thought FF13 was a step up in character development, at least to a certain level, but I do agree that it stunted itself and hit more than a few tropes. I had more problem with its lack of NPC development, or that characters (particularly Snow) never break out of their archetypal box. Yet, I still personally liked it better than FF10 or FF12. Then again, I've been playing FF games since FF4 came out, so there is much about the newer FF games (pretty much FF8 on for an oldbie like) that is rehashed to me, and FF13 breaking type likely appealed to me more than the same tired patterns repeated unto death. We all have opinions, so I don't mind your rant. Hope you don't mind my counter.

But regardless of whether you like it, the pattern of female archetypes was broken in FF13, and I do think it's fair to praise the game for that. It's also fair to mention you may hate the game, but I do think it's unfair to wish that the FF series would break archetypal patterns while ignoring the FF game that did.

ETA: I did weant to point out that FF13's flaws prevent it from being my favorite. My favorites tend to include the older games: FF Tactics, FF7, FF4, etc. For me, FF13 was more like FF8 and FF12. Flawed in execution, but has some really great ideas.
Edited 2010-08-07 02:24 (UTC)

[identity profile] eva-kasumi.livejournal.com 2010-08-07 04:10 am (UTC)(link)
You're right, I should have pointed out that XIII deviates from the pattern in the first place. But my reason for not doing so was that I feel that it completely undermined what steps forward it had taken in breaking the pattern when it failed to actually develop any of its characters past the tropes it set for them right from the beginning of the game. In previous FFs, the female characters may all have fallen into a set of archetypes, but at least they developed as characters within those archetypes--and yes, I've played plenty of FFs too, I've seen the rehash, but there are still elements within each of the female characters of those games that allows me to love them individually. In my opinion, the characters of FFXIII barely have personalities or development at all. By the end of the game (okay, very near the end, as admittedly I haven't quite beaten it yet), I don't feel that I know any of them as people at all.

So I didn't bring it up because for me, if the characters aren't people, then that completely defeats the point of breaking the pattern to begin with.

[identity profile] imadra-blue.livejournal.com 2010-08-07 04:33 am (UTC)(link)
Fair enough. What works for some won't work for others. And I'm by no means trying to change your opinion, especially since some levels, I agree. (Though I actually felt the development of Lightning and Hope was acceptable, if not enough for my liking. But the others never did develop much at all, so I can't argue too much.) I tend to compartmentalization my reactions to everything, so I mention good things even for games I consider failures (i.e. I think FF10 had a brilliant world setting and an interesting storyline). Then again, I'm obviously not shy about sharing my opinions, so I tend to talk too much about everything I think (and wind up alienating people... >.>). My apologies if I'm coming off too strong. I just found it strange FF13 wasn't brought up, was all.

(ETA: Clarification of above. I wouldn't try to change anyone's opinion, even if I didn't partially agree with them, though I'd still argue my own opinion. I respect others feel differently about things, and love things I hate and hate things I love.)
Edited 2010-08-07 04:36 (UTC)

Re: Wow, there's a LOT of interesting stuff there.

[identity profile] sour-idealist.livejournal.com 2010-08-07 04:41 am (UTC)(link)
I think it could be argued that Hope was introduced by name because he was a party member and Nora was not, although you have a point to.

As to Tifa and Yuffie, hey - takes all sorts to make a world. Or a good game.

Party system? What have I missed? And although you again have a very good point about the marketing, her screentime is also double that of everyone besides Noctis combined.

And I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with DoC to add anything to that (and I'm probably going to take your word for it since by most accounts it was not the world's best game.) Drat, I was hoping for another cool deconstruction.

Re: Wow, there's a LOT of interesting stuff there.

[identity profile] imadra-blue.livejournal.com 2010-08-07 06:52 am (UTC)(link)
I honestly didn't even notice the Nora introduction until [livejournal.com profile] owlmoose pointed out the trends with mothers rarely receiving names or import. I think FF13 took strides to reverse this. I can largely overlook the introduction.

True, true. Both Tifa and Yuffie (and also Aerith) have differing personalities and methods. I guess I just grow frustrated with the way Cloud treats Tifa a lot. Then again, I'm an aggressive girl. I do not hesitate to raise my voice when people I love upset me. XD

I had heard that there would be a party system in FF Versus 13, but it seems I'm either getting confused or just plain wrong. Nothing has been revealed about a party system yet, just some speculation. So I take it back. We'll have to see how it work, if at all. Since the KH developers work on FF Vs 13, I wonder if it will be like the KH party system, where you control your primary character only.

DoC has some interesting ideas, but the execution is one of the worst that FF has produced. And I truly despise shooting games, so we all know it didn't win points with me for that. XD I did like it for its Yuffie moments, though. She's as spunky as ever. ♥
Edited 2010-08-07 06:55 (UTC)

[identity profile] ravenclaw-devi.livejournal.com 2010-08-08 11:08 am (UTC)(link)
There's Quina I guess? (More genderless/of undetermined gender than female, but not unequivocally male.) But you have a point.

[identity profile] eva-kasumi.livejournal.com 2010-08-09 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
No, I hear you, it's fine. I know not everyone agrees with my assessment of XIII. I didn't bring it up because, like I said, I don't think it achieves the gender balancing that it attempts, and also because I knew that if I did it would devolve into a rant about XIII, and I didn't want to do that Riona's journal. But it does attempt to reconfigure gender roles, and I do give it some credit there.

[identity profile] wolfenkahlon.livejournal.com 2010-08-15 12:59 am (UTC)(link)
*Hunts through games*
Mitsuko (http://bloodyroar.wikia.com/wiki/Mitsuko_the_Boar) from Bloody Roar is 39.

D'arci Stern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_Chaos) from Urban Chaos would be about 29. (Her date of birth in the manual is 7/7/70, and the game is set at the turn of the millenium.)

Regina (http://dinocrisis.wikia.com/wiki/Regina) is 24 at the time of Dino Crisis 2, which is still better than the FF girls... but it is still younger than Dylan, even though it feels like she's older than him... and that wiki makes me realise that her date of birth makes her slightly younger than me...

Aline Cedrac (http://www.justadventure.com/reviews/AITD4/AITD4.shtm) from Alone in the Dark: The New Nightmare is 27.

That's it for anyone clearly over 22 though...

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