Don't Accept It.

[rionaleonhart]

I've now finished playing the seventh instalment of Umineko: When They Cry, which lulled me into a false sense of security by focusing on backstory and clearing things up, and then got wild as hell in the tea party. (Also, I possibly actually managed to deduce some things at the last minute!)



'This is my child, Lion' excuse me what

'Lion spoke with a bright smile after pinching Will's butt' exCUSE ME

Maybe this is a universe where Natsuhi didn't murder the baby? Is Lion that baby? I'll be interested to see what his relationship with Natsuhi is like.

IS SHANNON DLANOR, I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THIS

Oh, no, she's capitalising randomly, rather than consistently at the end of a sentence. More Final Fantasy VIII's zombie president than Dlanor.

The most unsettling 'I'll go and fetch the person you want to speak to, if you're sure' ever spoken.

I enjoy Lion politely being a bit of a shit. But I miss Battler!

Kinzo says that Beatrice died in his arms twice. When she fell from the cliff, she wouldn't have died in his arms, would she? Or is there more to that story?

Please tell me you didn't fuck your daughter, Kinzo.

Young Kinzo has Battler's face and I don't like it. I really don't want Kinzo to turn out to be time-travelling Battler.

SEEING BATTLER'S EXPRESSIONS ON SOMEONE ELSE IS REALLY UPSETTING.

It's interesting and strange to see how World War II is written about in a Japanese work of fiction.

Furniture cannot ****. So, they try to become Human because they want the right to ****.

I like that Will's direct and a little rude at times, but he's also compassionate and says some very sincere, kind things. I also love that he goes 'huh, Jessica's greeting me in a very old-fashioned way, I guess I should respond in an old-fashioned way as well' and kisses her hand absolutely sincerely and is then confused by how flustered she gets.

(They've only just met, and Jessica/Will is already more interesting than Jessica/Kanon.)

Lion... is Beatrice? Is the point of divergence that splits the universe whether Attempted Murder Baby is male or female? A male child grows up to be Lion, a female child grows up to be Beatrice? (Is Beatrice a trans woman?) Or is Attempted Murder Baby always Lion, with the question just being whether it's Attempted Murder Baby or Actual Murder Baby?

ATTEMPTED MURDER FILIAL INCEST BABY, OH WOW. This casts an extremely troubling light on Battler going 'DON'T CALL ME FATHER' and then getting married to New Beatrice in the sixth game. All these Battler-and-Kinzo parallels desperately need to stop.

Oh, wait, has Lion's gender never been disclosed? I noticed that Krauss said 'my child' rather than 'my son', but, if gendered pronouns haven't appeared anywhere for Lion, I didn't notice. I just saw the sprite and went 'no ludicrous tits, evidently male.'

Lion doesn't want to disclose their gender - 'does it really matter?' - so I'm inclined to read them as nonbinary.

If Beatrice was 'born' six years ago, should we conclude that she must have been one of the people on the island at that time, or should we conclude that she must only have come to the island later? (In the latter case, I suppose Beatrice is either Kanon or... Gohda. Gohda Beatrice would be a twist.)

If the witch Beatrice was born as someone imitating Beatrice for Maria's sake, can it not be any of the characters we've seen meeting Beatrice? We probably can't impose rules based on apparent meetings with Beatrice; we've seen Natsuhi taking tea with Beatrice outside the family conference, but we can't necessarily conclude that Beatrice is one of the people on the island in the rest of the year, because that Beatrice could just have been a daydream, rather than a person actually pretending to be her.

That said, Maria (although she claims not to remember it) apparently phoned the VIP room, expecting to speak to Beatrice, after the family conference was over. So perhaps the person imitating Beatrice is one of the people who might have been on the island at that time: Krauss, Natsuhi, Jessica, Genji, Kumasawa, Shannon, Kanon, Nanjo, Gohda?

The characters I can rule out with confidence are Battler, who hasn't visited the island in the last six years, and Rosa, who would never indulge her daughter like that. Also, if Maria first met Beatrice on Rokkenjima six years ago (I'm not sure of the exact timeline), that rules out Kanon and Gohda. Alas, my beloved Gohda-is-Beatrice theory falls by the wayside.

Here's the problem with the 'someone is imitating Beatrice' theory: where does Attempted Murder Incest Baby come into it? In a world where the baby grows up to be Lion, the witch Beatrice is never born. Is Shannon the Attempted Murder Incest Baby in a wig?

Come to think of it, Shannon and Kanon have no recollection of Lion, and vice versa. Does this mean that there's no universe in which both Lion and Shannon-and-Kanon exist? Is Shannon the Attempted Murder Baby? Is Kanon? ARE BOTH SHANNON AND KANON SOMEHOW THE SAME BABY? DO WE EVER SEE SHANNON AND KANON IN A ROOM AT THE SAME TIME?

I MEAN, YES, WE DO, BUT DO WE SEE THEM WHEN THERE ARE OTHER WITNESSES?

...I'm pretty sure we do, but we do know that unreliable narration is a thing in this game. Does Battler - the piece Battler - ever see Shannon and Kanon in the same place at the same time?

My theories are getting Battler levels of wild, but I like the feel of this one and I'm sticking to it. It'd explain how Erika is only the seventeenth person on the island; it'd explain why Will hasn't been able to meet both Shannon and Kanon together. Shannon and Kanon are the same person, and that person is Attempted Murder Baby, and that baby is Beatrice. I'm taking a stand here.

(Advantage of this theory: maybe George/Shannon and Jessica/Kanon can become interesting at last?

HOLY SHIT, THIS WOULD EXPLAIN WHY SHANNON AND KANON AND BEATRICE HAD TO FIGHT BECAUSE ONLY ONE OF THEM COULD HAVE THEIR LOVE FULFILLED. I think I've somehow actually hit on the truth here.)

WAIT A SECOND, BUT WHERE DO SHANNON'S COLOSSAL TITS GO? (Was the 'REAL BREASTS DO NOT LOOK LIKE THAT' aspect of the sprites a clue all along?)

'Why's Yasu the only one who isn't in a three-person room?' They say 'the only one' - there's no mention of Shannon - whereas Yasu claims to share a room with Shannon. And nobody comments on Shannon's age, despite the fact she'd be as young as Yasu, if not younger. Definitely the same person. You can't fool me, Umineko! I mean, you can and you have, but you can't fool me on this occasion.

Genji concealed the baby's survival because he didn't trust Kinzo not to fuck his child/grandchild, and frankly that makes sense. Good work, Genji.

'IN KINZO'S DEFENCE, HE FELT PRETTY BAD ABOUT IMPREGNATING HIS DAUGHTER' OH WELL I GUESS THAT'S FINE THEN

(Please don't be Kinzo, Battler.)

'Hey, Lion, wanna see if there's a universe where your grandfather fucks you?' Bernkastel asks, because she's the worst, or possibly just a fanfiction writer.

I'm pretty sure this is a Shannon/Battler scene. No sprites yet, and we're possibly supposed to assume she's interacting with George, but we know Battler is the big reader. (Maybe we're not expected to make that assumption; he refers to George as 'Aniki' later on, making it very clear he's not George.) So Shannon fell in love with Battler and George and Jessica and coped by becoming three people. And then a bunch of murders happened for... some reason...?

I feel I've worked a lot of this out, but the reason behind all the murders escapes me!

'The kid is completely guiltless.' I'm glad Battler never resented Ange for being born of his father's adultery.

We're told that the tragedy might not have occurred if Battler's return had been a year earlier or later. I'm trying to think of what's special about 1986, and all I can think is that it's when George proposes to Shannon. Maybe seeing Battler again on the day of George's proposal was so emotionally disconcerting that she... killed... everyone...?

Every line Teen George says is very funny, in a slightly awful way, now that I know he subscribed to incel philosophy.

I think there are lessons to be learnt on both sides here. Don't flippantly make romantic promises that someone else might take to heart. And, if someone else makes a romantic promise and doesn't keep it, don't murder his entire family.

I'm sad that Piece Battler isn't in the cathedral to listen to this story and go '?????? what the fuck????????? also whoops I'm really sorry'

Oh, Shannon makes a conscious decision to transfer her feelings for Battler over to her Beatrice persona! That explains a lot. I was wondering how Beatrice ended up bitterly in love with Battler, when emotions otherwise seem pretty compartmentalised across the personas; we never get any suggestion that Kanon is in love with George.

I originally assumed that 'furniture' referred to servants, but I don't think anyone ever uses the term of any human servants other than Shannon and Kanon, and Sakotarou isn't Maria's servant. It's probably more accurate to say that 'furniture' refers to imaginary friends. So of course romance between furniture and humans isn't possible; furniture doesn't exist, or only exists for as long as its creator is prepared to stay in its guise. For a relationship to work, you need the 'miracle' of the original human permanently adopting that invented persona. (Even Shannon is an invention: the competent, kind servant Yasu aspired to be.)

...oh, of course the Chiester Sisters are Maria's ceramic rabbits. Of course the lost member was MURDERED BY ROSA.

'To counter my ignorance, I shall need a crystallisation of knowledge. That which is smoothed out and pressed into many sheets, what is called a book.' You know, maybe I should have caught on earlier that Beatrice is just a big nerd roleplaying.

So did Beatrice end up dying because, while Battler struggled to grasp the truth, the Attempted Murder Baby Collective eventually decided to settle as Shannon and set Beatrice aside as an identity? I'm going to be even more resentful of the Shannon/George pairing if it ultimately killed off Beatrice.

'Now, I exist only to love you,' Shannon says to George, which is a) unsettling and b) possibly literally true.

someone please turn off the kill-everyone-at-midnight switch, I can't concentrate on this conversation when I know it's on

Oh, she was turning it off? That wasn't clear. It shouldn't have been on; everyone was supposed to get blown up tomorrow night!

EVERYONE STOP SHOOTING EACH OTHER GODDAMMIT USHIROMIYAS ARE THE WORST

I was a little disappointed that we weren't getting a proper game in episode seven, but surprise: it was hiding in the tea party!

KYRIE

KYRIE, YOU SEEMED LIKE THE SENSIBLE ONE AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS SERIES

oh, man, poor Ange having to watch this

Kyrie and Rudolf LURING THE COUSINS OUT ONE BY ONE TO MURDER THEM, THIS IS HORRIFYING

Battler, please escape from your TERRIBLE PARENTS and raise Ange by yourself.

If Eva's still alive, is it possible this is the timeline 'our' Ange came from?

STOP DOING MURDERS, I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU GUYS

I retract all Krauss/Kyrie and Rudolf/Natsuhi talk. Krauss/Natsuhi has always been the best sibling marriage anyway, and Rudolf and Kyrie exclusively deserve each other.

Battler has no idea that everyone's been murdered, and it kind of breaks my heart to see him complaining about Kinzo to himself like everything's normal.

Holy shit, Kyrie, you are the absolute worst person in the Ushiromiya family. You're worse than Rosa. You're worse than the guy who impregnated his own daughter. I'm impressed. (At some point I should rank the members of the Ushiromiya family by how awful they are.)

Battler's still alive, right? Does he die in the explosion? Or is there a possibility he survived? (But why wouldn't he go to Ange, in that case?)

When Battler reached the truth, did he reach the whole truth: that Beatrice repeatedly 'murdering his family' was creating alternative explanations to obfuscate what actually happened, protecting Battler and Ange from the knowledge of what terrible shitbags their parents were? That would explain why he seems to have forgiven Beatrice all the murders. (Although he seemed to be warming to her even before he realised she wasn't the true culprit.)

(EDIT: It has only just occurred to me, several hours later, that Beatrice is simultaneously Battler's aunt and cousin. This in no way prevents me from shipping it.)



One instalment to go! It's going to be strange to finish this huge, ridiculous tale of magic and murder.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Hello! I told you I was reading Umineko, and if you remember that the way I consume media is "to an obsessive and speedy degree" it's left me unable to comment as I don't really remember what episodes certain theories/information come up in. But I think I'm fairly safe to comment now. I enjoy your theorising!

Every line Teen George says is very funny, in a slightly awful way, now that I know he subscribed to incel philosophy.

Oh, Teen George. He wants to prove he can be more interesting than just a seemingly nice guy (except the bit where he wanted to murder his entire family to save Shannon).

I think there are lessons to be learnt on both sides here. Don't flippantly make romantic promises that someone else might take to heart. And, if someone else makes a romantic promise and doesn't keep it, don't murder his entire family.

I guess this explains that bit of episode 4 where Beatrice insists Battler remember his sin of six years ago, and he is rather clueless.

I really like the "making your own reality", "imaginary friends" themes of this one, it's a rather unique thing to have a take on. And then there's the point that refusal to accept reality in itself becomes a delusion (my reading of the Natsuhi situation: obviously she knows Kinzo is dead and comes up with the reason to say he's alive, but it reads more as her falling into that delusion and imagined conversations where she projected her own feelings rather than just going "if I say I saw father here, it looks like he's still alive".

I like to assume that Kyrie got annoyed by the fact that it's episode 7 and still no spotlight has been on her, so hijacked the tea party out of jealousy.

If Eva's still alive, is it possible this is the timeline 'our' Ange came from?

Would be particularly tragic if so, given the strained relationship between Ange and Eva. Although perhaps it would explain it more than anything else.

At some point I should rank the members of the Ushiromiya family by how awful they are.

The real difficulty is who tops the list as the least awful family member. ...Maybe Jessica? Her worst trait is having a bit of a bland romance, which is way down the pile.

When Battler reached the truth, did he reach the whole truth: that Beatrice repeatedly 'murdering his family' was creating alternative explanations to obfuscate what actually happened, protecting Battler and Ange from the knowledge of what terrible shitbags their parents were?

Interesting to think of, huh? An event where little events are known, so people theory craft around it. When you think of it that way, we really do this to a lot of events, don't we? I see Erika as another explorer of this point: she basically comes at the case very detached and from a theorycrafting point of view without caring about who it hurts/how it impacts others, just "wouldn't it be entertaining if..." A bit of an indictment of that idea if that really is how we're supposed to read it.

Incidentally, the fighting for the right to love between Beatrice/Shannon/Kanon is in Battler's game using his newfound knowledge, which I thought was rather interesting!

(EDIT: It has only just occurred to me, several hours later, that Beatrice is simultaneously Battler's aunt and cousin. This in no way prevents me from shipping it.)

This is so funny considering your reaction to Battler flirting with Rosa. xD Also, Umineko surely must be the series with the most canonical incest ships?

Do you still prefer Higurashi? How have your character perspectives changed?

-timydamonkey

[rionaleonhart]

Hello! I was wondering how you were getting along with Umineko; I should have guessed you'd passed me!

The themes really are interesting and unusual. I think you're right about Natsuhi; I think that, to some extent, she did persuade herself that her father-in-law was still alive. When 'her' Kinzo offered her praise, she seemed genuinely affected by it.

I was a little surprised that Kyrie didn't get a spotlight after Natsuhi, Rosa and Eva were given focus in the first three episodes; evidently she was too important a character for us to get to know her!

It does seem to be the true history of Ange's reality, given what Bernkastel says. Poor Ange. (My phone wanted to say 'Poor Acne' there.)

I also reached the 'Jessica is probably least awful' conclusion!

Incidentally, the fighting for the right to love between Beatrice/Shannon/Kanon is in Battler's game using his newfound knowledge, which I thought was rather interesting!

I also picked up on that! He evidently really did grasp at least part of the truth.

This is so funny considering your reaction to Battler flirting with Rosa. xD Also, Umineko surely must be the series with the most canonical incest ships?

LOOK, BATTLER'S NOT ALLOWED TO BE INTO HIS TERRIBLE AUNT, BUT

(There really is a lot of canonical incest going on! Kinzo/Beatrice, Kanon/Jessica, Shannon/George, Beatrice/Battler. Still, I haven't yet finished reading the A Song of Ice and Fire series, which has its share of incest.)

The question of how it compares to Higurashi is an interesting one! I like them in different ways, I think; I'm more into the mysteries of Umineko but the psychological aspects of Higurashi. While I've been enjoying Umineko a lot, nothing's given me the 'holy shit this is perfect, this was written especially for me' feeling of Higurashi chapter six. (I can't remember: have you read Higurashi?)

Changing character perspectives: I like Maria more than I did at the start. I like George less; I've just been increasingly bored by him. I've liked Jessica and Natsuhi pretty solidly. Eva's always been fun. I like Krauss more; he's my favourite of the siblings (Natsuhi's my favourite of the older generation). Rudolf and Kyrie... well, they're the worst, but at least they're not boring. I love Battler but don't care for Kinzo, so I really hope they're not the same person.

[keltena]

I enjoy Lion politely being a bit of a shit.

Lion is a delight. I like those bits of personality you can see in common with their alternate self now and again.

Furniture cannot ****. So, they try to become Human because they want the right to ****.

I like that Will's direct and a little rude at times, but he's also compassionate and says some very sincere, kind things. I also love that he goes 'huh, Jessica's greeting me in a very old-fashioned way, I guess I should respond in an old-fashioned way as well' and kisses her hand absolutely sincerely and is then confused by how flustered she gets.

Same. I really like how Will shows this incredible insight into and care for respecting people's feelings, and at the same time has this naturally blunt and kind of tactless personality. He's a very enjoyable character for being the totally unrelated outsider contracted in just to tell you the answers.

Oh, wait, has Lion's gender never been disclosed? I noticed that Krauss said 'my child' rather than 'my son', but, if gendered pronouns haven't appeared anywhere for Lion, I didn't notice. I just saw the sprite and went 'no ludicrous tits, evidently male.'

This is a fully understandable reaction. I mean, they're even wearing pants! And Schrödinger's gender is pretty great as genders go.

ATTEMPTED MURDER FILIAL INCEST BABY, OH WOW. This casts an extremely troubling light on Battler going 'DON'T CALL ME FATHER' and then getting married to New Beatrice in the sixth game. All these Battler-and-Kinzo parallels desperately need to stop.

In case there was any doubt, the answer to How Uncomfortable Can We Possibly Make These Narrative Parallels? is VERY.

The characters I can rule out with confidence[…] Rosa, who would never indulge her daughter like that.

This puts you ahead of a lot of fans at the time this episode came out! (Rosatrice is possibly my favorite fandom conspiracy I've ever heard.)

My theories are getting Battler levels of wild, but I like the feel of this one and I'm sticking to it. It'd explain how Erika is only the seventeenth person on the island; it'd explain why Will hasn't been able to meet both Shannon and Kanon together. Shannon and Kanon are the same person, and that person is Attempted Murder Baby, and that baby is Beatrice. I'm taking a stand here.

I feel like now might be a good time to quote your last post: If Shannon and Kanon are considered to be only half a human each, that explains the number: there are fifteen humans other than Shannon and Kanon, the two of them together make the sixteenth, and then adding Erika makes seventeen.

Advantage of this theory: maybe George/Shannon and Jessica/Kanon can become interesting at last?

I think I recall you commenting quite a while back that maybe you could manage slightly more interest for these relationships if they were fucked up, and to be entirely honest, I have been privately cackling the whole time.

(Was the 'REAL BREASTS DO NOT LOOK LIKE THAT' aspect of the sprites a clue all along?)

I've seen a lot of people make this exact comment! Which is an absolutely incredible thought, frankly. Unfortunately, the pachinko artists (and to a less extreme but still noticeable degree, Ryukishi07) are just as terrible at boobs on other characters. But Shannon does at least have the most ridiculous boobs in all three sprite sets (as Battler makes sure to... bring to our attention the very first time he sees her again).

'IN KINZO'S DEFENCE, HE FELT PRETTY BAD ABOUT IMPREGNATING HIS DAUGHTER' OH WELL I GUESS THAT'S FINE THEN

THANKS, NANJO. ...Honestly, as much as Kinzo wins the most terrible person contest by a sizeable margin, his trio of enablers were the ones I most wanted to destroy by time EP7 was through. Largely because they present themselves as the decent people who did everything they could, I think?

'Hey, Lion, wanna see if there's a universe where your grandfather fucks you?' Bernkastel asks, because she's the worst, or possibly just a fanfiction writer.

I feel like you know her well enough by now to know that the answer is "both"!

We're told that the tragedy might not have occurred if Battler's return had been a year earlier or later. I'm trying to think of what's special about 1986, and all I can think is that it's when George proposes to Shannon. Maybe seeing Battler again on the day of George's proposal was so emotionally disconcerting that she... killed... everyone...?

An understandable mistake, really. Haven't we all had days like that?

Oh, Shannon makes a conscious decision to transfer her feelings for Battler over to her Beatrice persona! That explains a lot. I was wondering how Beatrice ended up bitterly in love with Battler, when emotions otherwise seem pretty compartmentalised across the personas; we never get any suggestion that Kanon is in love with George.

What are OCs for if not compartmentalization, right?

Though on the other hand, there's also this right after Kanon first meets Battler...

(Even Shannon is an invention: the competent, kind servant Yasu aspired to be.)

I think seeing the original imaginary friend!Shannon for the first time was one of the most striking moments in all of Umineko for me, honestly. Since the very first episodes, there'd been this strong sense that Shannon was trying to force herself to be an impossible feminine ideal instead of a real person with thoughts and needs, but actually meeting that ideal in its purest form really threw the contrast between the impossible fiction and the human trying to embody it into stark relief.

'To counter my ignorance, I shall need a crystallisation of knowledge. That which is smoothed out and pressed into many sheets, what is called a book.' You know, maybe I should have caught on earlier that Beatrice is just a big nerd roleplaying.

The gradual realization that Umineko's ever-escalating levels of ridiculous nerdy magibabble have a fully in-universe origin might be even more fun than the realization of how simple the meaning of most of it actually is. It was babby's first fantasy worldbuilding all along!

'Now, I exist only to love you,' Shannon says to George, which is a) unsettling and b) possibly literally true.

As I think a friend of mine put it when I first saw that line: "AU where George actually recognizes that every other sentence out of his fiancée's mouth is a goddamn red flag."

Hey, remember that time George promised Shannon that in his eyes, he had already gone through with marrying her from the moment she accepted the engagement ring, and they would be happy together forever, even after they died? And then Shannon made several beautiful, romantic speeches about how it was okay even if they were chosen as sacrifices now, because in that instant their eternal vows were completed and nothing Beatrice could do to them could ever destroy their love? :)

KYRIE

KYRIE, YOU SEEMED LIKE THE SENSIBLE ONE AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS SERIES

Hey, let's be fair here: she is the most sensible murderer! Which, in the Ushiromiya family, is basically synonymous with "the sensible one". Everyone else loses their head completely once they start killing people, but not Kyrie.

Kyrie and Rudolf LURING THE COUSINS OUT ONE BY ONE TO MURDER THEM, THIS IS HORRIFYING

Remember that time in EP4 when the exact same thing happened, and the kids made badass empowering speeches against the villains, and died putting up an awesome, valiant fight to the last while vowing their love one last time and urging their loved ones to never give up on themselves no matter what?

My point is that EP7's tea party is horrifying, yes.

Holy shit, Kyrie, you are the absolute worst person in the Ushiromiya family.

Isn't she just? :')

(I think one of the most interesting(?) parts of the whole thing, to me, is that... In many meaningful respects, Kyrie is probably the best parent in the Ushiromiya family, just in terms of actual parenting quality? She's treated both Battler and Ange well all their lives up to now, been a positive figure in both their lives and a mostly good mentor to/influence on Battler so far, actually parents Ange and doesn't abuse her or Battler; even with the "homewrecker" part she's still a big improvement on most of the family. I don't know exactly what it says about the Ushiromiya family that the best parent is the one who secretly loathes one of her kids and couldn't care less about the other, but it definitely says something.)

(EDIT: It has only just occurred to me, several hours later, that Beatrice is simultaneously Battler's aunt and cousin. This in no way prevents me from shipping it.)

Congratulations on your surprise incest! I'm glad you're responding better to this new knowledge than Beatrice.

[rionaleonhart]

I like those bits of personality you can see in common with their alternate self now and again.

Yes! Beatrice isn't entirely capable of being proper, no matter what the universe.

I was fully expecting to spend the whole of episode seven going 'WHERE'S BATTLER, I DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS WILL GUY' (I definitely spent the whole of Higurashi's episode four going 'WHERE'S KEIICHI'), but, yes, Will managed to be pretty enjoyable!

My thoughts immediately went to your How Uncomfortable Can We Possibly Make These Narrative Parallels? comment at the 'Kinzo fucking his way through successive generations of Beatrice' revelation.

I'm curious about the Rosatrice conspiracy now! I can see that Rosa's age might make her a more plausible candidate than, say, Eva or Natsuhi.

But Shannon does at least have the most ridiculous boobs in all three sprite sets

Honestly, Kyrie's the one whose breasts most horrify me in the Steam set, although it's a close-run thing.

Okay, yes, Kanon is definitely into Battler. (Thank you for sharing these manga panels; I wouldn't see them otherwise, and there are some really interesting details!)

Since the very first episodes, there'd been this strong sense that Shannon was trying to force herself to be an impossible feminine ideal instead of a real person with thoughts and needs

Yes! Shannon never felt entirely right to me, and it's sort of a relief to realise she's actually not supposed to be right.

Remember that time in EP4 when the exact same thing happened

I WAS THINKING ABOUT EP4 DURING THAT SCENE, AND I WAS VERY UPSET.

In many meaningful respects, Kyrie is probably the best parent in the Ushiromiya family, just in terms of actual parenting quality?

Interesting! Eva loves George intensely but is too controlling; Rosa is by turns neglectful and actively abusive; I think Natsuhi's strictness causes Jessica to feel a little distant from her, and also she murdered a baby who was put in her care, which gets her docked a couple of points. Hideyoshi seems okay, but, yes, Kyrie might be the best mother. You know, up to the point where she kills all her kids' relatives and makes the decision to abandon Ange and presumably murder Battler. Not the best decision, but, hey, parenting's hard.

[keltena]

I'm curious about the Rosatrice conspiracy now! I can see that Rosa's age might make her a more plausible candidate than, say, Eva or Natsuhi.

All right, so to give a little context: back when Umineko was coming out, its fandom was mostly anime fans in the vein of what you'd find on 4chan. I wasn't around until years later, so I'm going by friends' accounts, but apparently fandom at large was very much not prepared for the answer arcs. A lot of people expected another Higurashi-esque "overcoming fate" story where Battler would ultimately find the truth, triumph over the evil witch, and return home to his family. So they didn't like when it turned out instead to be an introspective and tragic/bittersweet story centered on understanding the culprit's motives; didn't like that the author avoided spelling out the exact solutions to the mysteries; and especially didn't like the idea that Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice were the same person, or that Beatrice and Shannon might be anything other than cis women in general, especially while being the central character of both the story and the main heterosexual romances. From what I hear, there was a lot of vitriol towards the entire concept of Shkanontrice (as people call it) and Yasu as a character at the time; the majority view most places was that it was a ridiculously stupid answer to everything and Umineko had completely jumped the shark.

Rosatrice is an alternative theory from around that time, originally proposed by one fan in the form of a 9+ hour series of videos in which he asserts that Shkanontrice is not only stupid but provably false; that it is impossible for any of these three people to be the same person or for Shannon or Kanon to be the culprit without contradicting red truth; and that EP7 was actually one huge red herring to deceive readers into accepting it as an explanation instead of looking more closely for the real truth, and all Ryukishi07's statements confirming it in interviews are lies to uphold the ruse. The real truth is that Rosa is the culprit, with George as an accomplice, and every detail of the story that seemingly supports the "official explanation" is actually evidence for Rosatrice if you think about it for more than a second. (Coincidentally, the author has had a George/Rosa culprit theory since he was first introduced to Umineko through the janky anime adaptation of the question arcs; pretty amazing that he turned out to be completely right all along.) Evidently the theory got very popular, because there are a lot of supporters out there, of both the conspiracy theorist and "canon sucks, this is better" brands; fandom demographics have evolved enough since then that I never run into it in the spaces I frequent, but I hear it's still popular on r/umineko.

I think a lot of supporters have their own variations on the theory, but as far as I understand, the core premises of the original are:

• Rosa is the culprit and true identity of Beatrice, motivated by her guilt over the death of Beatrice II to carry out the epitaph's ritual in the hopes that it will resurrect her.


• "Yasu" is a fictional character/alter ego created by Rosa, in the image of the baby who died by falling from a cliff just like her mother, as a personification of her guilt. As Yasu only exists in Rosa's imagination, her life and experiences seen in EP7 are a combination of real conversations Rosa had with Shannon/the other servants, and details taken from Rosa's knowledge of the servants' lives. The character of Yasu the servant girl later evolved into the character of Beatrice the witch.


• The persona of Beatrice let Rosa live out the fantasy of being a perfect mother Maria adored, similarly to how the "black witch" was the one who violently abused her. Maria's interest in black magic came from her mother's own interest; Rosa's vehement opposition was to Maria talking about her secret in public, not to her interest in magic at all.


• Rosa, who had bonded with Shannon over their shared, unfulfilled desire for love, did all the things Beatrice did in her interactions with Shannon, including offering to take the burden of Shannon's love for Battler onto herself when he abandoned Shannon the way Rosa's husband abandoned her, which is why she's so personally invested in getting Battler to remember his sin against Shannon and latches on to him as someone to acknowledge her. (But it's definitely not in any way the romantic type of love, as the author takes pains to reiterate every time he mentions the subject.)


• George is Rosa's accomplice who commits many of the murders, motivated by the knowledge his family will never accept his relationship with Shannon, his feeling threatened by Battler's return, and his stated willingness to sacrifice anyone to ensure their future together. Rosa disposes of him once he's served his purpose, except in EP3 where he double-crosses her.


• Nanjo is another accomplice, bribed by Rosa to help them fake their deaths. He does this both by falsifying his autopsies and by providing Rosa with a drug that can induce fake death, thus allowing Rosa and George to commit murders even after they've seemingly died; the text explicitly supports this as a reasonable theory by having Erika suggest it.

...And the single most important part of the theory, IMO, which for some reason I never hear people mention: Gaap's outfit is evidence that Rosa designed her, because Rosa runs an unsuccessful fashion design company.

(Thank you for sharing these manga panels; I wouldn't see them otherwise, and there are some really interesting details!)

I'm glad I could, then! The Umineko manga has some really great stuff in it. The art style and quality can vary, since each arc is done by a different artist, but even the ones I'm not the biggest fan of have some great, striking moments.

You know, up to the point where she kills all her kids' relatives and makes the decision to abandon Ange and presumably murder Battler. Not the best decision, but, hey, parenting's hard.

Yep! :D I mean, think about it: the other kids all had mothers ranging from iffy to awful their whole lives and then died. Kyrie's daughter got to have a perfectly good mother for six years before she had an awful one, and she didn't die! What more could you want for your kids?

[rionaleonhart]

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this! I'd seen people in male-dominated fandom spaces complaining that Umineko went downhill in the answer arc, and I was trying to work out what about it had put the fans off. I'd assumed they just missed the Beatrice-Battler rivalry. I should have guessed the Shannon-Kanon-Beatrice business would be controversial!

a 9+ hour series of videos

whaaaaaaaaaat

Sherlock was the only fandom I previously knew of with a 'the creator deliberately put out a bad instalment in the knowledge that only TRUE FANS would look past it to uncover the truth' conspiracy theory; I'm weirdly delighted to know it hit another fandom as well. I suppose no one can take their truth away from them!

Gaap's outfit is evidence that Rosa designed her, because Rosa runs an unsuccessful fashion design company.

Okay, I'm sold.