Riona (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
rionaleonhart) wrote2023-02-20 08:01 pm
rionaleonhart) wrote2023-02-20 08:01 pm
Entry tags:
Am I Speaking To You Now, In This Moment?
I've finished Person of Interest!
'Synecdoche': The Machine saying she loved Root! I also like that the Machine was particularly struck by Root because 'she was capable of terrible things, but she chose to do good'. And 'We are virtually indistinguishable. I find comfort in that' is fascinating.
You know, the Machine simulating Root opens up intriguing potential for weird Machine/Shaw. I might play around with that idea a bit.
It sits oddly with me that Finch wanted the Machine to protect everyone equally - he scolded it when it tried to protect him specifically - and yet it considers the president a particularly high-priority individual target, but I suppose his death would have a lot of knock-on effects for the country as a whole, or the government might have demanded that feature.
I like the understated way Shaw is losing it. From a brief interaction, she'd seem more or less normal (by Shaw standards), but the cracks are showing through.
It's so good to see Reese and Shaw working together again!
I love that Shaw feels better after shooting some people, and that Reese gets that.
I'm delighted by the idea that the Machine has more teams in other locations, and that in at least some of these cases the teams are formed of people the New York team have already saved! I don't know if our team will make it out of this, but this at least gives me hope that their work might be carried on, although of course that's dependent on the Machine surviving.
Actually, at this point I'm going to pause and talk about how I expect this to end, before launching into the actual ending.
I don't have a good feeling about the human protagonists' chances. I've been asking myself 'if someone put you in control of the show at this point and asked you to come up with a fitting ending, what would you go for?' There's one clear answer, but I don't feel great about it: everyone sacrifices themselves in order to protect the Machine, which is then able to carry on their legacy using its other teams.
It's possible Fusco will make it out. I can envision a scenario with Finch as the sole survivor. I think Reese and Shaw are probably doomed, and I'm sad about that, because they're my favourites.
However this ends, I don't have much time left to spend with my murder boyfriend John Reese. I'm going to miss him!
'.exe': The 'what if the Machine had never existed?' segments are a neat way to reflect on everything that's happened as we approach the end. The people who would have died, the people who would have survived, the people who would never have had the chance to become someone better.
I wonder if what-if AU Root would have fallen in love with Samaritan, given her relationship with the Machine in our universe.
I'm so glad we're getting a lot of Reese-and-Shaw time, after being deprived of their interactions for so long.
Once Finch gets out of the airless room, his 'I'm here, I'm here' to the Machine almost sounds like he's trying to ressure her. He spent so long trying to hold the Machine at an emotional distance, and that wall has crumbled completely. I love it.
And he's consistently calling her 'she' now, which absolutely wrecks my heart. (I'm also calling her 'she' as of this episode, I notice; I was using 'it' earlier in this very entry!)
One episode left. I'm not prepared.
'return 0': 'The suspense is killing me, in addition to the gunshot wound.' Bless Finch.
I really love the point Reese and Fusco's relationship has ended up at.
God, Reese calling after Finch as Finch leaves to die. I've never heard him sound like that.
Shaw says 'this is the guy who killed you' to the Machine, meaning the guy who killed Root, and I love that.
There was never any chance that John Reese would make it out of this story alive. But it's been a privilege to watch him on my screen.
Reese smiling when he sees Finch leaving is destroying me.
The shot of the Machine with her hand on Reese's shoulder as he's fighting also made me startlingly emotional. She loves them all!
And that's the end of Person of Interest!
As an ending, I don't have particularly strong feelings on it? Neither satisfying nor dissatisfying, I feel. It's solid, it's fine. I like that it ends with the prospect of a new story, though.
Correction: I don't have particularly strong feelings beyond delight that Shaw survived. I'm also glad of the other survivors, of course, but Shaw's my favourite after Reese and I really wasn't sure she'd make it!
This is in part because 'Root or Shaw or both die?' was the one thing I'd been spoiled for before I started watching this show. I knew Root/Shaw was a big pairing, and I knew I'd seen people unhappy about one or more deaths in that pairing, but, because I didn't yet know Root or Shaw, their names got mixed up in my head. Did Root die? Did Shaw? Did they both die? I had no idea! So I'm glad Shaw made it out, after all that 'I'm not sure what I've actually been spoiled for' suspense.
I was fully expecting Reese to die; honestly, I would have been surprised if he didn't. I often dislike endings that kill the protagonist - I think 'kill the protagonist' is often a lazy ending that writers resort to if they don't know how else to end a story - but I think Reese's death fits Person of Interest completely, so, although I love him, I have no complaints. I'm glad Finch gave him a life, and I'm glad that, in the end, he was able to return the favour.
This show has consumed my free time for the past month and a half. It's going to be strange to adjust to life without it! (Meanwhile, you're going to have to adjust without my constant liveblogging.)
'Synecdoche': The Machine saying she loved Root! I also like that the Machine was particularly struck by Root because 'she was capable of terrible things, but she chose to do good'. And 'We are virtually indistinguishable. I find comfort in that' is fascinating.
You know, the Machine simulating Root opens up intriguing potential for weird Machine/Shaw. I might play around with that idea a bit.
It sits oddly with me that Finch wanted the Machine to protect everyone equally - he scolded it when it tried to protect him specifically - and yet it considers the president a particularly high-priority individual target, but I suppose his death would have a lot of knock-on effects for the country as a whole, or the government might have demanded that feature.
I like the understated way Shaw is losing it. From a brief interaction, she'd seem more or less normal (by Shaw standards), but the cracks are showing through.
It's so good to see Reese and Shaw working together again!
I love that Shaw feels better after shooting some people, and that Reese gets that.
I'm delighted by the idea that the Machine has more teams in other locations, and that in at least some of these cases the teams are formed of people the New York team have already saved! I don't know if our team will make it out of this, but this at least gives me hope that their work might be carried on, although of course that's dependent on the Machine surviving.
Actually, at this point I'm going to pause and talk about how I expect this to end, before launching into the actual ending.
I don't have a good feeling about the human protagonists' chances. I've been asking myself 'if someone put you in control of the show at this point and asked you to come up with a fitting ending, what would you go for?' There's one clear answer, but I don't feel great about it: everyone sacrifices themselves in order to protect the Machine, which is then able to carry on their legacy using its other teams.
It's possible Fusco will make it out. I can envision a scenario with Finch as the sole survivor. I think Reese and Shaw are probably doomed, and I'm sad about that, because they're my favourites.
However this ends, I don't have much time left to spend with my murder boyfriend John Reese. I'm going to miss him!
'.exe': The 'what if the Machine had never existed?' segments are a neat way to reflect on everything that's happened as we approach the end. The people who would have died, the people who would have survived, the people who would never have had the chance to become someone better.
I wonder if what-if AU Root would have fallen in love with Samaritan, given her relationship with the Machine in our universe.
I'm so glad we're getting a lot of Reese-and-Shaw time, after being deprived of their interactions for so long.
Once Finch gets out of the airless room, his 'I'm here, I'm here' to the Machine almost sounds like he's trying to ressure her. He spent so long trying to hold the Machine at an emotional distance, and that wall has crumbled completely. I love it.
And he's consistently calling her 'she' now, which absolutely wrecks my heart. (I'm also calling her 'she' as of this episode, I notice; I was using 'it' earlier in this very entry!)
One episode left. I'm not prepared.
'return 0': 'The suspense is killing me, in addition to the gunshot wound.' Bless Finch.
I really love the point Reese and Fusco's relationship has ended up at.
God, Reese calling after Finch as Finch leaves to die. I've never heard him sound like that.
Shaw says 'this is the guy who killed you' to the Machine, meaning the guy who killed Root, and I love that.
There was never any chance that John Reese would make it out of this story alive. But it's been a privilege to watch him on my screen.
Reese smiling when he sees Finch leaving is destroying me.
The shot of the Machine with her hand on Reese's shoulder as he's fighting also made me startlingly emotional. She loves them all!
And that's the end of Person of Interest!
As an ending, I don't have particularly strong feelings on it? Neither satisfying nor dissatisfying, I feel. It's solid, it's fine. I like that it ends with the prospect of a new story, though.
Correction: I don't have particularly strong feelings beyond delight that Shaw survived. I'm also glad of the other survivors, of course, but Shaw's my favourite after Reese and I really wasn't sure she'd make it!
This is in part because 'Root or Shaw or both die?' was the one thing I'd been spoiled for before I started watching this show. I knew Root/Shaw was a big pairing, and I knew I'd seen people unhappy about one or more deaths in that pairing, but, because I didn't yet know Root or Shaw, their names got mixed up in my head. Did Root die? Did Shaw? Did they both die? I had no idea! So I'm glad Shaw made it out, after all that 'I'm not sure what I've actually been spoiled for' suspense.
I was fully expecting Reese to die; honestly, I would have been surprised if he didn't. I often dislike endings that kill the protagonist - I think 'kill the protagonist' is often a lazy ending that writers resort to if they don't know how else to end a story - but I think Reese's death fits Person of Interest completely, so, although I love him, I have no complaints. I'm glad Finch gave him a life, and I'm glad that, in the end, he was able to return the favour.
This show has consumed my free time for the past month and a half. It's going to be strange to adjust to life without it! (Meanwhile, you're going to have to adjust without my constant liveblogging.)
no subject
(Farscape)
"(Meanwhile, you're going to have to adjust without my constant liveblogging.)"
AW! Not knowing much about the show, I really enjoyed your liveblogging. :D
And I know that the time after having finished a really great show feels WEIRD.
no subject
And I know that the time after having finished a really great show feels WEIRD.
It really does! Am I really expected to watch or play things without John Reese in them now? That seems unreasonable.
no subject
no subject
no subject
I really liked that moment: Reese clearly recognizing that Shaw was grieving and letting her do it in her own way. Felt very much like him.
It's possible Fusco will make it out. I can envision a scenario with Finch as the sole survivor. I think Reese and Shaw are probably doomed, and I'm sad about that, because they're my favourites.
I remember that I was pretty convinced Shaw would make it, because after all the fake death and psychological terror she went through with Samaritan, killing her would have felt really wrong to me. Finch on the other hand? I was sure he'd die for the longest time, creator of the Machine who started it all and so on. John was up in the air, but once they'd established the other teams, I was pretty sure he would die. I was less satisfied with it than you were, though, and I still don't think it was necessary.
I wonder if what-if AU Root would have fallen in love with Samaritan, given her relationship with the Machine in our universe.
Given her personality and beliefs in the beginning, I'm pretty sure she would have. In fact, with her "next step of evolution" and "caring is a flaw" and being convinced that Harold crippled the Machine, I'm not sure why she was so focused on the Machine as her sole God in the first place. Samaritan seemed more up early!Root's alley and even though she met the Machine first, she could still have changed sides or gone for a "two Gods = better than one" approach instead. Then again, I guess at that point, she was too into being the Machine's chosen human, so her almost religious devotion decided her side more than any actual decision.
The suspense is killing me, in addition to the gunshot wound.' Bless Finch.
Hee. That was a favourite line for me, too.
(Meanwhile, you're going to have to adjust without my constant liveblogging.)
It was interesting to follow along! I hadn't thought this much about the show in quite a while, so this brought back some memories.
no subject
Yes! I love their relationship so much.
after all the fake death and psychological terror she went through with Samaritan, killing her would have felt really wrong to me.
That did cross my mind; it would have felt so frustrating to bring her back after all that, only to kill her off within a few episodes! But, given that I wasn't entirely sure whether I'd already seen her death mentioned or not, I couldn't be certain that she'd be okay.
I'm glad Shaw made it out; I think I'd have found her death a lot harder to accept than Reese's, even if I love Reese more. Reese ultimately dying in service of Finch has felt narratively fitting to me since the start of the show, so I've had a while to come to terms with the idea!
Finch on the other hand? I was sure he'd die for the longest time, creator of the Machine who started it all and so on.
I thought there was a good chance we'd lose Finch, not least because I was so sure of Reese's death, and Finch also dying would fit his 'sooner or later, both of us will probably wind up dead' line from the first episode. But I could also envision an ending where Finch survived, because he's a character who could carry on if the whole Machine project came crashing down. He has the skills to build another Machine, so I thought, if the Machine was ultimately destroyed and everyone was killed and Finch was left alone, the show could end on the possibility that he might be able to rebuild (whereas, if e.g. Reese was the sole survivor, there's nowhere for him to go; he needs someone else, he's not a character who can take action on his own).
I've really enjoyed your comments! It's been good to have you along for this ride.
no subject
That's one reason why I was hoping they'd subvert it actually! It's not that it was OOC or anything - of course he would do it, that was basically established by episode 10, and in fact, Reese making that particular deal with the Machine was the most Reese thing - but it's so obvious and so exactly what Reese himself would think, with his complete disregard for his own safety and all, that I'd have liked it to turn out differently. Not least because death as a logical end to almost any character arc is something I very much dislike.
if the Machine was ultimately destroyed and everyone was killed and Finch was left alone, the show could end on the possibility that he might be able to rebuild
But do you think he would have? Because I'm not so sure about that one.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-02-24 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)I'm trying to think about what media has had endings I actually like - maybe FF8 and FF9? They both end on some beautiful, poignant sequences and they always make me smile.
Kill the protagonist endings - depends how and why it's done. Death Note, for example, felt like it was always going to end that way - Ryuk is very clear about it from the beginning, and within only an episode it's clear there's no other way that Light is going to stop. I know some people feel it went on too long and to a degree that's probably right, but it was never going to end on a victory for Light.
I was cross with that style ending in the Damnatio Memoriae books (which are pretty damn obscure but I quite liked, with some reservations) because it felt needless and like it meant the growth of the character felt pointless in a bad way, because of the way it ended.
The Bunker Diary on the other hand (that book I mentioned to you that got reviews complaining it was depressingly grim), it kind of works in that book? People have been kidnapped for no reason and seem to be the playthings of a very bored individual. Then they break the rules and that individual abandons them and things quickly spiral out of control through desperation and ultimately, they all die abandoned. It's never clear who kidnapped them or why. It's never clear why they were left there to die; was the kidnapper angry at their rulebreaking? Did something happen to them? I put "pointless in a bad way" earlier, because this feels pointless in a different way - I don't mean it as any form of insult.
I still haven't started season 5 of Person of Interest, but I knew who died before going into it - I looked it up in relation to your post thinking it did not sound like my thing and obviously I would not be watching it. Alas... So can't really get spoiled. (Actually, the first thing I took in when trying to look it up and get a sense of it was seeing ice-9 mentioning and then being unable to think of anything but Zero Escape!)
I noticed you posted on the Zodiac Trial thread! I'm glad you seem to be enjoying it; I thought you would. I would be happy to hear your thoughts on the game, characters (plus ranking), what's going on etc. (Starved of anywhere to talk about this game? Me? Surely not.)
-timydamonkey
no subject
We certainly do! In my case, I genuinely love the endings of both Danganronpa 2 and Danganronpa V3. So many of the fans went 'V3's ending is stupid and therefore terrible', but I went 'V3's ending is stupid and I'm so happy'. If I wanted sensible plot twists, I wouldn't be in the murder game genre. (See also Zero Time Dilemma: absolutely bullshit plot twist, most of the fandom hated it, I was delighted.)
Kill the protagonist endings - depends how and why it's done. Death Note, for example, felt like it was always going to end that way
Very much agreed! Death Note was an ending where the death of the protagonist felt fitting; I did feel the series outstayed its welcome, but the ending worked for me.
The ending of Ori and the Will of the Wisps didn't technically kill the protagonist, but it did something fundamentally similar, and I hated it so fiercely that I don't know if I'll ever replay the game. You spend the entire game trying to find your sibling, and then you're never really reunited because you turn into a tree! It felt like an ending to a different story from the one they'd been telling; it went 'and then you turned into a tree to save the forest' and I went 'LOOK, SAVING THE FOREST IS IMPORTANT, BUT I'M HERE FOR MY SIBLING; that's been what's driving me all along and that should be the focus of the ending!'
The Bunker Diary sounds extremely upsetting!
(Actually, the first thing I took in when trying to look it up and get a sense of it was seeing ice-9 mentioning and then being unable to think of anything but Zero Escape!)
I also immediately thought of Zero Escape when I realised the computer virus was called ICE-9!
I'm glad you spotted me in the Zodiac Trial thread! I went 'I should reply to one of timydamonkey's comments to say I've been reading The Zodiac Trial' and then 'wait, but she doesn't have an account and might not see my reply' and then 'hold on, if I post in the thread she might see it!'
Thank you for the recommendation! I'm enjoying it a lot. It's been nice to have something so drastically different from Person of Interest to follow it up; I originally gave Lost a try, but it just made me miss my murder boyfriend.
Dog's probably my favourite character; as I said in the thread, I enjoy his inappropriately laid-back attitude, and he has a lot of great lines. I also like Snake (smug, smart, a little bit of an arsehole without being a full-on arsehole, also gets some good lines), Dragon (I like that she's bold, angry and violent but has just enough principles to add another dimension to her) and Tiger (I find her principled nature and inappropriate positivity endearing, and, given that she confessed her personality straight away when it became relevant, I'm curious to see how her route turns out; I suppose we've seen from Monkey that being willing to sacrifice yourself for the group doesn't necessarily mean you can't do some fucked-up things!). Rooster is hilarious, but I was mildly disappointed to learn that he's faking his personality to some extent.
I'm curious about Mouse; I'm finding it hard to get a handle on her. She's always a strong voice for cooperation, but she's got an angry, judgemental side, and she's so strangely unkind to Sheep. She doesn't generally want people to die, but she's willing to decide that that's what they deserve if that makes it easier for her to cope. I feel there's more to learn about her, and I'm interested to find it out.
I'm sort of impressed that everyone always cooperates until the personality reveals come out! What a civilised start to this murder game. I was expecting everyone to be out for themselves from the start, particularly given the unbalanced abilities.
I'd love to hear your thoughts!
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-02-25 11:24 am (UTC)(link)That Ori and the Will of the Wisps ending sounds extremely weird out of context! It does seem to strange to completely ignore the narrative drive. You'd think if that's the way they wanted to go they'd at least go "also your sibling also changed into a tree, you can be their neighbouring tree". Then you save a forest and get reunited!
The Bunker Diary sounds extremely upsetting!
The easiest way to explain The Bunker Diary is it's like a death game, but if the mastermind buggered off midway through to leave everyone to descend into chaos and for those who survive that initial chaos to starve to death. There's less play for your life but more psychological torture. (I haven't read the book in years, but as an example, I think at one point they work out that the clocks have all been messed with to completely compromise their sense of time.) There's lot of scope for some good fanfic exploring what happened to the kidnapper or an outside investigation but unsurprisingly there is no fandom. I think I even requested it in Yuletide, once! I thought it was really thought provoking but as I play lots of murder game genre stuff I suppose I'm more tolerant of 'story about random kidnapping of individuals' than most general readers, haha.
I am not surprised Dog is your favourite! He's mine too, though I did go back and forth on him - I had a relatively poor impression inititally, and as I got to see more of him across different routes he grew in my estimation. That conversation between him and Bunny very early on if you team with them is probably the best at establishing both of those characters, their similarities and their differences. I am also very fond of Snake and Dragon, and Pig too. Pig's route is one of my favourites, as is the route that the LPer has just started. I think Pig's route is also where I sat up and started paying more attention to the game over and route end notes though I'd caught a few curiosities in them before: I remember reacting quite strongly to the "No, this may be a good enough ending for Mouse, but it won’t do for me." in the King of Spades ending. Horse and Sheep's routes are probably the weakest for me.
I just enjoy the unusual route structure (and that actually not all the routes are just related to traitor personalities), and that we get to see antagonism from everybody. I think I'd also told you I enjoyed what it does with its "true" route, though obviously I won't say anything more on that til we've actually experienced it.
I also think it's interesting how impressions of characters can change dependent on in what order you experience the routes. I played the game completely blind, and managed to hit the most unlikely set of initial routes you can imagine - but I'm really glad I did. The first route I hit is the one the LPer has just started and, as they've noted in their narrative, you hit a brick wall here if you the player doesn't have enough information. Then I hit another route that has an information lock that you haven't seen yet. Then Snake's route, which was the first I fully completed, and a fun one to start off with. It made the reveal that the traitor personalities changed pretty interesting! The last route I hit at all was Bunny's route - I do think that is stronger coming earlier, as when many of the reveals in it aren't really new it loses some punch, though I did appreciate the Town of Salem vibes, and that the route has both Dog and Bunny acting within it, not just one of them. I can give the full order if you're interested as, since I took extensive notes, I know what order I experienced every ending!
I like that there's this air of culpability among the crew assembled for the Death Game and that while there seem to be some fundamentally decent people here, underneath that there are misdeeds or a less nice person, and that's perhaps why people are willing to act as they do as traitors. And that the game keeps throwing question marks as to the character of individuals in the group - keeps the player on their toes! And then of course the player makes their own judgements based on what they see of characters across routes. Plus, of course, some of the people know each other (though not necessarily very well) and getting the Brian Morris stuff out of the way very early is very unusual for a death game.
I took 20 pages of notes on this game; I realised I'd have to take some when it came to the Clubs, Hearts, Diamonds game overs so I could remember the hints to avoid death, but I ended up taking a LOT of notes and colour coding my document based on which traitor routes we were on, haha.
Mouse is a curious character, and she really does seem to have a thing against Sheep; she's not like that with anyone else! Perhaps sensing weakness there since she presents as so timid? It's nice to have a female protagonist too, and I appreciate that our roster of fighters also includes two women!
I still think it's interesting that this game was originally a story, and functionally things changed when it became a game, for obvious reasons - I imagine it would have been quite different as a story. On the Commentary mode unlocked after the game is completed, Themis talks about some of the changes in development just from when it was a game so I imagine they would be much more extensive with a book.
I've played the author's second game, The Divine Deception (which is not a death game, but again you'd probably like it) and it is really interesting to contrast the multiple viewpoints we get in that game to Mouse, since there is more than one narrator. I took 29 pages of notes for that game!
-timydamonkey
no subject
If it's a route we've already seen in the Let's Play, I'd be curious to hear about your poor early impression of Dog!
I suppose the Let's Play hitting the 'Dog tries to tame everyone' route first probably doesn't give a great first impression objectively, but I was surprised to see how many people reading the thread started to dislike him at that point, whereas I was going 'I already liked him, and now he's being a fun arsehole, which doesn't hurt!' I think his determination to survive in that route perhaps undermines his general defeated attitude, though, which meant I needed to reassess my view of his character slightly.
I do like Pig! I find it really, really interesting that there's an ending where she doesn't confess she has a relevant personality; she just quietly goes along with the escape plan, in the full knowledge she's going to die while everyone else gets out alive.
and getting the Brian Morris stuff out of the way very early is very unusual for a death game.
Yes! I was impressed by how quickly the game was willing to make it clear that, barring some very weird shenanigans, the mastermind can't really be one of the participants (or at least the Jade Emperor can't be). The Emperor doesn't speak directly often, but he does refer to Aaron Morris as 'my father' at one point, and I seem to recall he speaks directly to the group at the end of the route where only Pig and Monkey die; I doubt he's Pig or Monkey.
I suppose it's possible that the Jade Emperor is in cahoots with someone on the killing floor, but the game is still willing to seemingly rule out the mastermind being one of the participants straight away, which means it's not relying on the promise of that sort of reveal to draw the player in. Even Exit/Corners, which has an external mastermind, still dangles the possibility of a traitor within the group for several chapters.
I still think it's interesting that this game was originally a story, and functionally things changed when it became a game, for obvious reasons - I imagine it would have been quite different as a story.
I was fascinated to learn that! I'd never have guessed it was originally supposed to be a regular novel; it feels so visual novel-esque in both concept and structure. It's hard to imagine what the novel would look like.