rionaleonhart | History Can Wait.

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History Can Wait.

I've finished Final Fantasy XVI! Here's my last batch of playthrough notes.

I've been watching a Let's Play of this game with Ginger, in addition to playing it myself, and it's reached the point at which Clive is chained up nude in a cell. 'You see, I understand why Cid might chain him up,' I said, 'but why would he strip him naked?' Ginger considered for an instant and said, 'Because he was chaining someone up and just went onto autopilot,' which I am immediately adopting as canon.

I was about to be slightly miffed that I'd barely scratched the main plot, after six or seven sidequests in a row, and the game was throwing yet another sidequest at me. But the questgiver is Jote, who I really want to get to know better, so I'll allow it!

(Retrospective note: we never did get to know Jote well enough for my satisfaction.)

I love Joshua punching Clive for taking Shiva; what a great moment!

JOSHUA DON'T STAY BEHIND oh goddammit. I'm always so excited to spend time with Joshua and see more of the brothers' relationship, but it's always so short-lived! Don't just leave me with Gav; I don't care about Gav! (Sorry, Gav.)

Glancing at the AO3 section, I'd noticed that Clive/Barnabas was a popular pairing. Having now done the Barnabas fight, most of which Barnabas spends in a weird state of ecstasy, I can understand why. At one point he said, 'I am yours, Mythos. Claim me as your prize.' I imagine the post-fight scene in which he forces Clive to take Odin (ahem) may also have been a factor.

As a character, I find Ultima pretty dull, but as a god I do think he's interesting: a god who created humanity for his own convenience, isn't really interested in them beyond what they can do for him, and considers it inconvenient that they gained sapience and free will.

'I have wronged so many. Ruined thousands of lives. I did not deserve to be saved, but save me you and your brother did.' Excellent self-loathing, Dion. Tell me more.

I like that Clive and Joshua are fighting for a chance for a better future for humanity, even if they acknowledge that the work may take generations and they might not see that better future themselves. Just like Cid, who devoted his life to a future he never got to see.

STOP GIVING ME SIDEQUESTS, IT'S SO BAD FOR PACING, I JUST WANT TO PROGRESS THE PLOT

Okay, I will allow this sidequest in which Torgal returns our childhood sparring sword to us, because that's cute.

This batch of sidequests is generally pretty good! Some nice conclusions to minor character arcs, some custom animation. Plus more L'ubor. (I'm not really intense about any of the characters in this game, which is a bit of a pity, but I think my three favourites might be Cid, Mid and L'ubor.) I'll let these ones stay.

It's not like I actively dislike any of the sidequests in this game, really. They offer some interesting insight! There are just too many of them.

Oh, boo, I saved the Joshua sidequest for last; you're telling me he could have been in my party all this time if I'd done it first?

And now he's out of my party again! Boooooo! Come on my goddamn date, Joshua.

Put the daisy crown on Clive's head. PUT THE DAISY CROWN ON CLIVE'S HEAD, JILL. If that daisy crown doesn't end up on Clive's head, I'm deleting this game.

Hey, both Jill and Joshua are in my party now! I wish that had been the case for more of this game; it's been a bit lonely.

Just took a closer look at a Rosarian scarecrow; it was a Vivi-style black mage! That's cute.

While I'm not that attached to the characters of this game, I was invested enough to take a quick trot around the Hideaway and speak to all my pals before leaving for the final mission. Plus I bought a round for everyone in the bar, of course!

Clive hugging Mid! I really like their relationship; I wish we'd seen more of it.

Mid hugging Joshua and Dion is also delightful, particularly how awkward Dion is about it. He can't handle affection; he doesn't deserve it!

Gav's never really interested me, but I do like that he cries when we're leaving.

WHY AREN'T JILL AND TORGAL COMING WITH US FOR THE FINAL BATTLE

This is a nice scene saying goodbye to them! But I'm so pissed off that we're saying goodbye to them! LET ME BRING MY FRIENDS WITH ME, STOP TAKING THEM AWAY. They're capable fighters; they could help!

Game, I swear, if you make me fight Joshua to the death I'm going to be even more unhappy than I was when you didn't let Clive wear the flower garland.

NO, THIS IS BAD TOO

I do like that Joshua passes on his powers through a hug, though. And I sort of like the fact that Clive is a really messy, noisy crier; I feel it's a quality I rarely see in major characters. No single manly tears here!

Liked this exchange, too:

'Even now, you deny the inevitable.'
'As we always have.'

I can't believe this game ends with you punching God in the face for a million damage. Lightning is seething with envy.

Clive going back to hold Joshua's body after the battle is incredibly distressing.

Hmm. Mixed feelings on the ending. I ended up liking the 'defeat an uncaring god to earn the right to live on our own terms' plot, and I was satisfied with the conclusion there. But I've spoken before about my dislike of endings that kill the protagonist out of nowhere because it feels like the writer doesn't know how else to end a story, and it did feel a bit 'oh, now Clive has to die for unclear reasons'. It could have felt fitting if the game had set up the possibility beforehand and tied in the 'sometimes you have to put in the work to make things better, even if you'll never live to see the world you're working for' theme.

Also, come on, Clive, Dion sacrificed his life for you and your brother; the least you could do is imagine his voice cheering you on when you call on Bahamut in the final battle!

Oh, it's cool that we get to see that far-future world that Clive fought and died for!

WAIT DID JOSHUA SURVIVE WAIT DID JOSHUA SURVIVE

The last thing we see in this game is a couple of big Final Fantasy fans roleplaying, and frankly I think that's delightful.

Final conclusion: Final Fantasy XVI is a good game, very polished. The battle system is fun; the worldbuilding is interesting. There are some pacing issues (if you want to see everything) on account of the number and distribution of sidequests, but it'd be hard to name a game in this series without pacing issues.

I didn't love the characters, which is a shame, because the characters are my favourite part of most Final Fantasy games. I did think minor characters were nicely fleshed out, though, which is important for a game that's ultimately about the value of community; you need a lot of memorable side characters if you want to pull that off.

It's not what I look for in a Final Fantasy and would probably end up moderately low in my ranking of the series, but, disregarding its name, I've enjoyed my time with it. I definitely liked it a lot more than I expected to from the trailers.

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Avoiding the main content of your post as I own FF16 but haven't picked it up yet - how does it compare to 15? I liked the characters in 15 and the relationship between them, and the ending holds itself quite nicely, but feel like the main story is extremely slim and it's mostly padded with sidequests (nothing wrong with side quests, but it feels like a very small game without them) as well as the second half feeling extremely rushed, plus the whole "lol hope you watched Kingsglaive" moment earlier on. Does this one feel like it had a bit more time to breathe in development instead of the mad dev cycle the previous game had?

Happy New Year also!

General update:

I had what I consider a nice reception on my Yuletide fic, so that's nice, and I feel I got to play with some of my stronger styles so I'm very happy with that.

I've been playing a bunch of games this past month: House Flipper 1 and 2 (because why tidy my own house when I can do it to virtual houses apparently), Scene Investigators (I wrote maybe half a notebook of notes before realising there is a notebook option in game that means I can type notes. I REGRET NOTHING, BUT I SPENT LIKE 10 HOURS STRAIGHT OF GAME TIME JUST HAND WRITING NOTES. Reading them without context is funny.). I own the previous game, The Painscreek Killings, and I don't know if that has a notebook or not but I know it's designed for taking notes, so guess I've got the other half of the notebook if not for when I play that one! I just wanted a little breather before going to that one as it is intense on the focus and notetaking front.

I'm currently playing The Game of Fourtune which is, you guessed it, a visual novel about a death game. I'm a bit less than half way through, I think? It takes some interesting different approaches to other games I've played as there's less focus on a mastermind or the how-to of the situation (in fact most people seem to know exactly what they're walking into, which is revealed pretty quickly) and the focus seems to be more on breaking down people's reasons for being there and what different players are involved in what different plotpoints (and breaking down all sorts that has gone in the past). It also is somewhat unusual in that there's quite an age range in the cast, from 68 (who is a female character, whoo!) to 20 (not a female, surprisingly!). Anyway, I'm enjoying it so far and you'd probably enjoy it too. I've just done a section where (and I'm going to give you this completely devoid of any context whatsoever) people had to be locked together in a closet for 14 minutes several times and the game (which is actually surprisingly non-horny, you can tell it's not an Uchikoshi game, lol) keeps making fun of the scenario and what could happen (and then there's ultimately a very sweet scene). So that was a thing that happened! It has some tropes I really like too but I won't say more on that in case you play it.

(I am thoroughly stretching the acceptable amount of brackets to be in a single sentence in this post and I'M NOT SORRY.)

-timydamonkey

Happy New Year!

Final Fantasy XVI is much more polished than Final Fantasy XV, with a more fleshed-out story and stronger worldbuilding. I preferred XV's main characters and their dynamics, although XVI had better side characters. Final Fantasy XV had a much stronger emotional impact for me, although of course that's a very subjective thing.

I would say without hesitation that Final Fantasy XVI is a better game, but I love Final Fantasy XV more.

I'm slightly awed by your half-notebook of notes, although I suppose I don't know how large a notebook it is!

The Game of Fourtune sounds intriguing! I'd be interested to know your non-spoilery thoughts once you've finished it.

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It's a shame that the characters didn't really click for me, but I'm glad to know other people loved them!

I've seen people suggest that as many as all three of the lads may survive at the end

It's definitely been interesting to see the different theories on this! I came away with the interpretation 'Dion and Clive died, but Clive revived Joshua by doing the glowy thing and Joshua went on to write the book', but I can see how other people might have different takes.

I had much of the same reactions to XVI tbh, with the exception that I hated the gameplay because it hurt my hands something rotten. The move to action-focused fighting styles is really depressing me, because I'm very happy to portion out small amounts of time to play, say, a Devil May Cry game, knowing in advance that I have to be careful how long I play for. But having to do that for a FF game which can be upwards of 3x longer than a DMC game feels very bad.

Big agree on the pacing - it was nice to see the stories we'd followed through wrap up (especially the one for the blacksmith and his friend, who I totally ended up shipping), but having so many of them just before the ending was really frustrating!

I am thoroughly in the Joshua Survived camp!! All his moments with Clive were my favourites, but I needed more damnit! I was fully expecting to go very fannish after finishing the game, but in the end I was too frustrated overall with the entire experience to really get into it. Alas!

Edited (XVI NOT XIV LMAO) 2024-01-01 22:58 (UTC)

To be honest, I played the game with the 'just press Square and the game does all the cool things for you' ring equipped, and I have no regrets on this front. It made the game a lot more fun for me when I could just focus on attacking, dodging and healing without constantly needing to keep track of whether my abilities had cooled down enough to be used.

I am thoroughly in the Joshua Survived camp!! All his moments with Clive were my favourites, but I needed more damnit!

You have my company on both fronts! I love sibling relationships, and Clive and Joshua had great moments, but they never entirely spent enough time together for my satisfaction.

Yeah that thing was helpful for sure! But I wish it also lessened the amount you had to hit the button as well, because it didn't really address the issue imo. Making it so you don't have to combo helps if remembering combos is difficult, but doesn't help if the issue is lots of repetitive button pressing (and either way I wish these had been options in a menu and not equippable items, but I won't go off about that s,hfdgl).

I think I could happily have played an entire game of just Joshua and Clive haha, that whole will-they-won't-they meet tease felt so cruel at times! But when they did meet again, oughh it was so cathartic. My babies ;___;

I really want to pick it up sometime, but that'll have to wait until it comes to PC. People do have me curious, though!

I hope you get the chance to play it, and that you enjoy it when you do! I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

I actually liked the placement of the sidequests - it gave me a bit of downtime after Plot-stuff, and usually gave me either something interesting about a side character or a fairly useful item.

I was also VERY disappointed by the final party.

I liked that all the sidequests had unique dialogue and most of them gave insight into the character or the world, and I can see how they tied into the theme of community; you're an important part of the hideaway and you need to take the time to help out the residents. I thought there were far too many of them, though, especially as mechanically they were all pretty much identical. There are seventy-six sidequests; surely some of them could have been cut!

I was also VERY disappointed by the final party.

It's weird that Jill feels so consistently sidelined, given that she's probably the character with the most screentime after Clive.

Congrats on finishing! I was looking forward to this final post. :D

And I sort of like the fact that Clive is a really messy, noisy crier; I feel it's a quality I rarely see in major characters.

Haha, this is honestly one of my favorite aspects of this game: men having messy emotions. I love Clive's tears; he hurts horribly, and he shows it. The voice actors really knocked it out of the park.

Clive going back to hold Joshua's body after the battle is incredibly distressing.

The flashback sequence is what got me the worst. Cradle to grave was the vibe, owwww. :')

I'm so glad you enjoyed it despite it not being what you were hoping for! I've loved getting to read your thoughts -- and the fic -- that you've shared.

The last thing we see in this game is a couple of big Final Fantasy fans roleplaying, and frankly I think that's delightful.

I laughed IRL, thank you.

The most miserable man! Clive having a nude, chained-up breakdown is one of my favourite scenes. (I was going to say 'my favourite scene', but it might have to compete with his reunion with Joshua.)

That flashback sequence was agonising.

And thank you! I'm delighted that you've enjoyed following my experience with this game.

Lightning is seething with envy I am cackling with delight.

Maybe it's because XV and certain FFXIV things primed me to expect it, but the fact that Clive has been so stuck on his duty the entire game made me assume that he was going to end up dying at the end. Like, he's the only Bearer who shows no lithification effects from the *truly stupendous* amount of aether he's throwing around, and that had to catch up with him eventually (and we do see that.) I don't like it and we are not talking about the seventeen "everyone lives" AUs currently lurking in my fics-to-write list, but it felt appropriate, much the same way that I felt the similar lines in XIV and XV were handled. It's not like he throws his life away; he's always been aware that his power has a price, and had he not been Mythos (and had the Night of Flames etc. never happened) he likely would have been near dead by now from channeling Phoenix power. IDK. I don't like the tragedy outcome but I was pretty sure it was where we were going from, well, about the Night of Flames onward.

I feel I'm not surprised that Clive died, but I was a little unsatisfied by how it played out. Possibly because, under the circumstances, his instant and unhesitating progression from 'oh, looks like I might have to sacrifice myself' to 'so I'll sacrifice myself' to sacrificing himself made me feel that he wasn't interested in exploring options for living in the immediate aftermath of Joshua's death. A considered 'I'd prefer to live, but this is what needs to be done for the world' sacrifice would be more fitting for the story than a rash 'might as well, living doesn't look appealing right now' sacrifice, and I think the former is probably what was intended, but Clive's motives were made a little unclear by the fact that his sacrifice came straight after the death of Joshua.

I have no idea whether any of that made sense! It's a struggle to articulate my feelings about the ending.

Ah, see, I read it as the former so maybe that's why it sat better with me? I completely understand this perspective, though!

I'm glad you brought up L'ubor in this entry I only half-read (for spoiler reasons only) because FFXVI did succeed in making me feel a feeling the other day: I wanted L'ubor to let the ungrateful assholes in Dalimil die after they started throwing rocks at him and the children.

(Also, weirdly eloquent and well-rehearsed speech from children. It's almost like a handful of unmarried forty-year-old men in Japan wrote it.)

Anyway, I'm still very angry how that quest played out. None of them deserve L'ubor.

Edited 2024-04-01 16:17 (UTC)

I so wanted to bring L'ubor back to the hideout! Wait, did we bring L'ubor back to the hideout? I don't think we did, but it's a mark of how memorable the bulk of this game was that I can't be entirely sure.

Nope, he becomes... mayor of Dalimil.

(Fuck Dalimil.)

I came back to read this proper now that I have context for it and

Also, come on, Clive, Dion sacrificed his life for you and your brother; the least you could do is imagine his voice cheering you on when you call on Bahamut in the final battle!

This is such a good point! Although I'm not mad about how the voices amped up in emotional resonance, ending with Jill, Joshua, and Dad. Persona 3 did it better, but I appreciate the attempt. I almost felt a feeling.

I did go on Reddit to see what the consensus was of 'did Joshua survive?' after playing it my own self and... apparently popular opinion is that Clive survived? And he was the one who wrote the novel, using his brother's name. I am pretty skeptical, but I also don't care; the reasoning behind it referenced quite a bit of story building and lore that I had no memory of. I'm so good at FFXVI! 😊 (My interpretation was that the flashback scene of baby Joshua knighting baby Clive as his shield was that he imbued a bit of Phoenix into Clive, and Clive gave that bit back at the end of the game—allowing Joshua to survive. But general consensus is that the game makes it clear Phoenix can't revive the dead.)

My personal interpretation is that Joshua's the one who survived, with the reasoning that a) Clive did a glowy magic thing over Joshua's body and b) Joshua's name is on the book. Seems like the most straightforward possibility, and I like straightforwardness! Maybe Clive got addicted to stealing his dead loved ones' names after becoming Cid, though.

Actually, can't forget evidence point c): Clive would be terrible at writing a novel.

Okay, the idea of Clive writing a novel is absolutely hilarious to me and a great excuse to link my favourite clip of Ben Starr ever, because I can draw a squiggly line between, "Clive writes a book," to, "and this is that book."

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History Can Wait.

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