Riona (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
rionaleonhart) wrote2025-04-12 12:35 pm
rionaleonhart) wrote2025-04-12 12:35 pm
Entry tags:
Hell We Can Make For Ourselves.
I've now finished all that exists so far of The Coffin of Andy and Leyley! This entry contains spoilers up to the 'Shots and Such' ending in the new chapter (Decay episode three).
NB: this entry is going to touch on some pretty dark themes, including incest, dubcon and domestic abuse.
I think a couple of people have been reading my notes without having played this game, so here's a series of messages I sent to RD in an attempt to explain the Andrew/Ashley dynamic, in case that gives some helpful context for the rest of this entry:
Riona: SO THE THING ABOUT ANDREW/ASHLEY
Riona: is that the incestuous feelings are not actually requited.
Riona: Andrew is in love with Ashley! Painfully so!
Riona: Ashley has no particular desire for a romantic or sexual relationship with her brother.
Riona: HOWEVER
Riona: Ashley is obsessed with her brother, and she is ruthless as hell.
Riona: She wants him to stay with her; she wants him to prioritise her at all times.
Riona: If she can get that through sex, she's willing to give it a try.
Riona: And Andrew knows this! He knows!
Riona: He knows, if he asks Ashley for sex, she'll just give it to him! He knows!!
Riona: His life is a constant struggle against the fact that what he wants is right there, he can have it at any moment he chooses, but he has to resist because he knows that's not really what Ashley wants.
Riona: RD I CANNOT STOP THINKING ABOUT THIS FUCKED-UP RELATIONSHIP.
Seeing how broken down Andrew is in the 'let her call you Andy' route is kind of breaking my heart. You'll never be your own person.
'Ashley's happiness comes at the cost of yours. Always has. Always will' is a brutal line.
There are things Andrew wants that are beyond his reach: autonomy, respect. There's something Andrew wants that's within his reach: Ashley. But he can't have her, because he knows he'll hate himself if he does. It is an inescapable fact of Andrew Graves's existence that he will never have anything he wants.
I thought at first that Ashley roasts the camper in the Andy route because, as Andrew's given way on the name issue, she knows she doesn't have to respect him. But she does it in the 'shoot Andrew' route as well! So, by default, Ashley ignores Andrew's instruction not to kill anyone; she only respects it in the 'Andrew kills her in the vision' route because she's afraid of him.
Oh, we get confirmation that Ashley is a virgin! I did wonder; it's not like she would have any interest in having sex with anyone besides Andrew (and she's only willing to entertain it with Andrew in the hope of keeping him with her, rather than due to actual sexual attraction). I don't think of Ashley as an asexual character, but I do think she's a character who happens not to be interested in sex with anyone, on account of her fixation on her brother.
Ashley: I don't wanna die a virgin!
Andrew: I'm not having sex with you when you're on your period.
You liar, Andrew. As if that would really be a dealbreaker for you.
Ashley: Were you ever happy?
Andrew: I was.
Ashley: But with me.
Andrew: Only with you, honestly.
These two are DEVASTATING.
Ashley acts on impulse. Andrew calculates. Ashley has less restraint, but Andrew is more dangerous, in a way, although at least Andrew won't act to harm you without a solid reason.
If the Graves siblings target you, I don't fancy your chances, but what I'd recommend is bargaining with Ashley and reasoning with Andrew. Ashley can be swayed by a good deal; Andrew will be swayed by nothing less than being convinced that leaving you alive is safer than killing you.
Neither is susceptible to emotional appeals, but, if that's all you've got in your pocket, bring it to Ashley. It won't work either way; you don't have a chance. But you will somehow have even less of a chance with Andrew. At least there's a remote possibility that Ashley will take a kind of liking to you on a whim, or spontaneously let you go just to fuck with Andrew. If you deliver your emotional plea to Andrew, he might as well be hearing nothing at all.
Julia, don't ask if Andrew is intimate with his sister! Either the answer is yes, in which case you'll probably be happier not knowing, or the answer is no, in which case asking the question is a huge mistake!
Julia immediately hanging up when Andrew responds with 'Define intimate' is cracking me up.
I really enjoy it when Andrew thinks of Ashley as 'my Ashley'.
'Everything was always about what I wanted to do, or eat, or talk about...' - oh, huh! I'm fascinated to learn that Andrew's habit of suppressing his own wants and needs around Ashley spilled into his relationship with Julia.
I also find it fascinating that Andrew thinks for a moment he should have taken the opportunity for sex with Julia, then switches tracks to '...Nah. (She seems better off without me. If that's the case, I should leave her be.)'
Andrew doesn't care about anyone but Ashley, and he doesn't have a lot of regard for Julia. He's mainly just interested in what Julia can offer him - sex, the illusion of a normal life - and he's not above e.g. playing with Julia's emotions by calling her just so he can fuck with Ashley. But he does at least seem to have a trace more compassion for Julia than he would for a stranger. 'Andrew Graves's default level of compassion' is an extremely low bar to clear, but it's interesting to see anyone clear it at all. (His later 'I really did try to love her' is also interesting.)
He doesn't hate her. Maybe that's the most he can offer. Find someone else, Julia.
I had such a 'holy shit' reaction when Ashley turned down Andrew's cigarette offer and he asked, 'Shotgun?' No matter how weird these two get, I'm never prepared for their insane moments of intimacy!
holy shit, Ashley kissing him
I kind of assumed there would only be the one incestuous kissing route in this chapter! But no. All roads lead to these two making out.
I'm genuinely impressed by the creator's sheer dedication to cramming in as much incest as possible. They know exactly why they're writing this game, and God himself could not stop them.
Loved 'In what world would I not run for the hills after that shit? Well, other than this one, since here I am like a fucking moron.'
Ashley: Why do you need me drunk?
Andrew: Ughhh... 'cause it needs to be an accident...?
ANDREW, there is SO MUCH WRONG with you and I am endlessly fascinated by it.
'I need you to see this horrible pile of shit that I am... and make that stupid fucking face like you don't get what the problem is. It's the only time I feel okay.' Heartbreaking!!
'I wish you hadn't said anything earlier. I would've fucked you stupid.' HOW AM I EXPECTED TO HANDLE THIS
There are points in this game where a character says or does something absolutely insane, and I have to take a break to write these notes, or get up and walk away from the screen for a moment, because I'm not ready to see whatever comes next.
Ashley: Are you asking me for sex? How scandalous.
Andrew: No. Stupid. It's the one thing I have left.
God!!! The only way he can tell himself he's not that bad! He hasn't fucked her!
If he has sex with Ashley, that's it; he can't sink any lower. He's a murderer; he's a cannibal; he's spied on his sister, he's hit her, he's choked her, he's fantasised about her in both consensual and nonconsensual scenarios. (I can't remember if that last detail is explicitly stated, but it might as well be; I'd be surprised to find a player who disagrees.) But he hasn't actually had sex with his sister; there's still a line he hasn't crossed. He has to cling to that, because he doesn't have anything else.
Another interesting use of dialogue options for characterisation: while playing as Andrew during a fight with Ashley, you keep being presented with the option 'disengage', but he just can't, no matter how many times you choose it. (And the eventual outcome is horrifying.)
(I'll apologise in a bit, I'm sure. But I don't think I'll mean it.)
This scene is absolutely destroying me.
There's so much wrong between you two. God.
'Look, I'm sorry if I made it seem like you had to offer me this, you seriously don't... Please don't.'
I am a wreck. But not as much of a wreck as Andrew, at least.
'...Why'd you ask for this? You're not even turned on.' '...It's going to hurt if you're not into it.' GOD this is AGONISING.
'Not like this... please.'
I'd been mildly spoiled for the fact that this route might include sex, but I could never have anticipated how awful and tragic it would feel.
Attempting to describe it to RD: 'The siblings fucked and it was AWFUL. It was absolutely agonising. He realised she wasn't turned on and tried to back out, but she pressured him into going through with it because she was so afraid he'd leave her. I love these two absolute fuckups.'
It's very telling that, rather than 'we can have more lame sex', Ashley says 'you can have more lame sex with me'. She doesn't regret it (it's hard to make Ashley regret anything), but she's not personally invested in sex with Andrew beyond its value as a tool to keep Andrew close.
Showering together: 'Honestly, you thought that this might go somewhere. But she doesn't initiate, and seeing her battered body fills you with too much guilt to ask.' Awful!!
Oh, God, the sex was bad and they were both miserable, and the next morning Andrew wants to try to fix it somehow, but all he can think of to suggest is trying to have better sex.
Andrew: I'd just like to do it properly... Let me make it worth it.
Ashley: ...
Andrew: ...No?
Ashley: You can if you want.
DEVASTATING.
You cannot assuage your guilt by having better sex with Ashley, Andrew! The problem is not that the sex was bad; the problem is that Ashley is not interested in sex with you.
'No one asks when she kicks you out for the night, or which stairs she fell down this time.' Of course he never stopped hitting her.
'She claws at you hard enough to draw blood, and you tell yourself it's a kink. But really, she just wants to give back some of the pain you cause. You love her enough to know this, yet hate her too much to care.'
I don't even know what to say. This route was an absolutely miserable experience, and I'm not complaining for a second. I can't get enough of this hideous relationship.
IN CONCLUSION: holy shit. I already loved this game, and the new chapter exceeded my expectations in every way imaginable. What an absolute treasure trove of fucked-up character dynamics.
NB: this entry is going to touch on some pretty dark themes, including incest, dubcon and domestic abuse.
I think a couple of people have been reading my notes without having played this game, so here's a series of messages I sent to RD in an attempt to explain the Andrew/Ashley dynamic, in case that gives some helpful context for the rest of this entry:
Riona: SO THE THING ABOUT ANDREW/ASHLEY
Riona: is that the incestuous feelings are not actually requited.
Riona: Andrew is in love with Ashley! Painfully so!
Riona: Ashley has no particular desire for a romantic or sexual relationship with her brother.
Riona: HOWEVER
Riona: Ashley is obsessed with her brother, and she is ruthless as hell.
Riona: She wants him to stay with her; she wants him to prioritise her at all times.
Riona: If she can get that through sex, she's willing to give it a try.
Riona: And Andrew knows this! He knows!
Riona: He knows, if he asks Ashley for sex, she'll just give it to him! He knows!!
Riona: His life is a constant struggle against the fact that what he wants is right there, he can have it at any moment he chooses, but he has to resist because he knows that's not really what Ashley wants.
Riona: RD I CANNOT STOP THINKING ABOUT THIS FUCKED-UP RELATIONSHIP.
Seeing how broken down Andrew is in the 'let her call you Andy' route is kind of breaking my heart. You'll never be your own person.
'Ashley's happiness comes at the cost of yours. Always has. Always will' is a brutal line.
There are things Andrew wants that are beyond his reach: autonomy, respect. There's something Andrew wants that's within his reach: Ashley. But he can't have her, because he knows he'll hate himself if he does. It is an inescapable fact of Andrew Graves's existence that he will never have anything he wants.
I thought at first that Ashley roasts the camper in the Andy route because, as Andrew's given way on the name issue, she knows she doesn't have to respect him. But she does it in the 'shoot Andrew' route as well! So, by default, Ashley ignores Andrew's instruction not to kill anyone; she only respects it in the 'Andrew kills her in the vision' route because she's afraid of him.
Oh, we get confirmation that Ashley is a virgin! I did wonder; it's not like she would have any interest in having sex with anyone besides Andrew (and she's only willing to entertain it with Andrew in the hope of keeping him with her, rather than due to actual sexual attraction). I don't think of Ashley as an asexual character, but I do think she's a character who happens not to be interested in sex with anyone, on account of her fixation on her brother.
Ashley: I don't wanna die a virgin!
Andrew: I'm not having sex with you when you're on your period.
You liar, Andrew. As if that would really be a dealbreaker for you.
Ashley: Were you ever happy?
Andrew: I was.
Ashley: But with me.
Andrew: Only with you, honestly.
These two are DEVASTATING.
Ashley acts on impulse. Andrew calculates. Ashley has less restraint, but Andrew is more dangerous, in a way, although at least Andrew won't act to harm you without a solid reason.
If the Graves siblings target you, I don't fancy your chances, but what I'd recommend is bargaining with Ashley and reasoning with Andrew. Ashley can be swayed by a good deal; Andrew will be swayed by nothing less than being convinced that leaving you alive is safer than killing you.
Neither is susceptible to emotional appeals, but, if that's all you've got in your pocket, bring it to Ashley. It won't work either way; you don't have a chance. But you will somehow have even less of a chance with Andrew. At least there's a remote possibility that Ashley will take a kind of liking to you on a whim, or spontaneously let you go just to fuck with Andrew. If you deliver your emotional plea to Andrew, he might as well be hearing nothing at all.
Julia, don't ask if Andrew is intimate with his sister! Either the answer is yes, in which case you'll probably be happier not knowing, or the answer is no, in which case asking the question is a huge mistake!
Julia immediately hanging up when Andrew responds with 'Define intimate' is cracking me up.
I really enjoy it when Andrew thinks of Ashley as 'my Ashley'.
'Everything was always about what I wanted to do, or eat, or talk about...' - oh, huh! I'm fascinated to learn that Andrew's habit of suppressing his own wants and needs around Ashley spilled into his relationship with Julia.
I also find it fascinating that Andrew thinks for a moment he should have taken the opportunity for sex with Julia, then switches tracks to '...Nah. (She seems better off without me. If that's the case, I should leave her be.)'
Andrew doesn't care about anyone but Ashley, and he doesn't have a lot of regard for Julia. He's mainly just interested in what Julia can offer him - sex, the illusion of a normal life - and he's not above e.g. playing with Julia's emotions by calling her just so he can fuck with Ashley. But he does at least seem to have a trace more compassion for Julia than he would for a stranger. 'Andrew Graves's default level of compassion' is an extremely low bar to clear, but it's interesting to see anyone clear it at all. (His later 'I really did try to love her' is also interesting.)
He doesn't hate her. Maybe that's the most he can offer. Find someone else, Julia.
I had such a 'holy shit' reaction when Ashley turned down Andrew's cigarette offer and he asked, 'Shotgun?' No matter how weird these two get, I'm never prepared for their insane moments of intimacy!
holy shit, Ashley kissing him
I kind of assumed there would only be the one incestuous kissing route in this chapter! But no. All roads lead to these two making out.
I'm genuinely impressed by the creator's sheer dedication to cramming in as much incest as possible. They know exactly why they're writing this game, and God himself could not stop them.
Loved 'In what world would I not run for the hills after that shit? Well, other than this one, since here I am like a fucking moron.'
Ashley: Why do you need me drunk?
Andrew: Ughhh... 'cause it needs to be an accident...?
ANDREW, there is SO MUCH WRONG with you and I am endlessly fascinated by it.
'I need you to see this horrible pile of shit that I am... and make that stupid fucking face like you don't get what the problem is. It's the only time I feel okay.' Heartbreaking!!
'I wish you hadn't said anything earlier. I would've fucked you stupid.' HOW AM I EXPECTED TO HANDLE THIS
There are points in this game where a character says or does something absolutely insane, and I have to take a break to write these notes, or get up and walk away from the screen for a moment, because I'm not ready to see whatever comes next.
Ashley: Are you asking me for sex? How scandalous.
Andrew: No. Stupid. It's the one thing I have left.
God!!! The only way he can tell himself he's not that bad! He hasn't fucked her!
If he has sex with Ashley, that's it; he can't sink any lower. He's a murderer; he's a cannibal; he's spied on his sister, he's hit her, he's choked her, he's fantasised about her in both consensual and nonconsensual scenarios. (I can't remember if that last detail is explicitly stated, but it might as well be; I'd be surprised to find a player who disagrees.) But he hasn't actually had sex with his sister; there's still a line he hasn't crossed. He has to cling to that, because he doesn't have anything else.
Another interesting use of dialogue options for characterisation: while playing as Andrew during a fight with Ashley, you keep being presented with the option 'disengage', but he just can't, no matter how many times you choose it. (And the eventual outcome is horrifying.)
(I'll apologise in a bit, I'm sure. But I don't think I'll mean it.)
This scene is absolutely destroying me.
There's so much wrong between you two. God.
'Look, I'm sorry if I made it seem like you had to offer me this, you seriously don't... Please don't.'
I am a wreck. But not as much of a wreck as Andrew, at least.
'...Why'd you ask for this? You're not even turned on.' '...It's going to hurt if you're not into it.' GOD this is AGONISING.
'Not like this... please.'
I'd been mildly spoiled for the fact that this route might include sex, but I could never have anticipated how awful and tragic it would feel.
Attempting to describe it to RD: 'The siblings fucked and it was AWFUL. It was absolutely agonising. He realised she wasn't turned on and tried to back out, but she pressured him into going through with it because she was so afraid he'd leave her. I love these two absolute fuckups.'
It's very telling that, rather than 'we can have more lame sex', Ashley says 'you can have more lame sex with me'. She doesn't regret it (it's hard to make Ashley regret anything), but she's not personally invested in sex with Andrew beyond its value as a tool to keep Andrew close.
Showering together: 'Honestly, you thought that this might go somewhere. But she doesn't initiate, and seeing her battered body fills you with too much guilt to ask.' Awful!!
Oh, God, the sex was bad and they were both miserable, and the next morning Andrew wants to try to fix it somehow, but all he can think of to suggest is trying to have better sex.
Andrew: I'd just like to do it properly... Let me make it worth it.
Ashley: ...
Andrew: ...No?
Ashley: You can if you want.
DEVASTATING.
You cannot assuage your guilt by having better sex with Ashley, Andrew! The problem is not that the sex was bad; the problem is that Ashley is not interested in sex with you.
'No one asks when she kicks you out for the night, or which stairs she fell down this time.' Of course he never stopped hitting her.
'She claws at you hard enough to draw blood, and you tell yourself it's a kink. But really, she just wants to give back some of the pain you cause. You love her enough to know this, yet hate her too much to care.'
I don't even know what to say. This route was an absolutely miserable experience, and I'm not complaining for a second. I can't get enough of this hideous relationship.
IN CONCLUSION: holy shit. I already loved this game, and the new chapter exceeded my expectations in every way imaginable. What an absolute treasure trove of fucked-up character dynamics.
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(It's a very weird adaptation. It's a modern day thing where there are 2 Moriarty siblings, Jim and Sabine, and Sabine and Holmes basically fall in love and Jim is not happy about that at all. There was a lot of focus on the really toxic and obsessive sibling relationship from childhood up to the present including them trying to murder each other as kids and an incestuous sex scene. Jim was apparently adopted but since they grew up together as brother and sister from being small kids and a lot of that was shown in the flashbacks that really did nothing to lessen how incestuous it was, it was pretty bizarre)
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I didn't realize it wasn't complete though (or this is just new content anyway), so I might wait until it is...? to delve into it.
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As much as I want to encourage you to try the game out in its current state, because I love it and I want more people on Dreamwidth to talk about it, I can understand preferring to wait until the rest of the chapters are out! It might be a while, but I'm sure you'll know when it's finished because you'll hear my screaming from across the Atlantic.
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There are things Andrew wants that are beyond his reach: autonomy, respect. There's something Andrew wants that's within his reach: Ashley. But he can't have her, because he knows he'll hate himself if he does. It is an inescapable fact of Andrew Graves's existence that he will never have anything he wants.
Delicious!
You liar, Andrew. As if that would really be a dealbreaker for you.
For real
Julia immediately hanging up when Andrew responds with 'Define intimate' is cracking me up.
LOL
All roads lead to these two making out.
I'm enjoying all the routes to inevitability in this. Like they're kind of predestined to do the fucked up shit regardless.
Another interesting use of dialogue options for characterisation: while playing as Andrew during a fight with Ashley, you keep being presented with the option 'disengage', but he just can't, no matter how many times you choose it.
Ooooh fantastic use of gameplay.
Attempting to describe it to RD: 'The siblings fucked and it was AWFUL. It was absolutely agonising. He realised she wasn't turned on and tried to back out, but she pressured him into going through with it because she was so afraid he'd leave her. I love these two absolute fuckups.'
AMAZING
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I'm glad to know my entries are giving an accurate impression of these two! Although perhaps that's no surprise, because everything they do has me rolling around in noisy agony.
I'm enjoying all the routes to inevitability in this. Like they're kind of predestined to do the fucked up shit regardless.
Yes! I'm enjoying that, although there are multiple dramatically diverging routes in this game, they're ultimately all just different ways to absolutely fuck up the relationship between these two.
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I got a good laugh when I saw that was one of the dialogue choices. I love the way the meter just plummets right after. And the fact that Andrew calls her back just to argue semantics, haha.
I'm so proud of Julia in this episode. Andrew brings up getting back together, she turns him down, gives him an incredible "fuck you" letter, and gets the hell out of there. And she's been getting therapy, she has a sister who's got her back, and she has a new guy who's been supporting her. I'm so happy for her. <3
Between Andrew and Ashley, Andrew is the character I find more interesting, but I think Ashley is the one I'm more emotionally attached to. As you can imagine, this route was devastating for me.
There are points in this game where a character says or does something absolutely insane, and I have to take a break to write these notes, or get up and walk away from the screen for a moment, because I'm not ready to see whatever comes next.
Lol! I've done that too! I remember having to get up and walk around right after the phonecall to Julia in the other route. I was freaking out, haha.
I can't remember if that last detail is explicitly stated, but it might as well be; I'd be surprised to find a player who disagrees.
Am player. Definitely not disagreeing.
(And the eventual outcome is horrifying.)
Oh god, that scene wrecked me. And the following scene. Oh, god.
Another horrifying thought: I don't think we're told whether or not Ashley's visions of Andrew killing her ever stopped.
I think the part that absolutely shattered my heart into a million pieces (and I was pretty much destroyed at that point already) was right near the end, in the new apartment. Something about Ashley getting drunk and acting like she wanted him for once, but she had a meltdown the next day, and Andrew's been trying to re-create the experience ever since, to no avail. There's just so many levels of awfulness right there!
On one hand, I'm sincerely impressed by how well-written and emotionally traumatizing this route was. But on the other hand: OW. MY HEART.
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It's so good! Such a concise way to indicate 'oh boy you fucked up'.
Get far away from this mess, Julia! Having any kind of relationship with the Graves siblings is not going to end well for anyone, the Graves siblings included.
I remember having to get up and walk around right after the phonecall to Julia in the other route.
Ha, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one! This game is just too much to handle sometimes.
Something about Ashley getting drunk and acting like she wanted him for once, but she had a meltdown the next day, and Andrew's been trying to re-create the experience ever since, to no avail.
That was such an incredible and devastating detail.
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I agree that Andrew's sexual attraction being unreciprocated but Ashley being desperate enough to keep him around to fuck him anyway makes the dynamic much more interesting and twisty than the more obvious options would.
Also shout-out to the hypocrisy of Andrew saying, "Unlike you, I would never make you do something you didn't want to." while he literally has a gun to Ashley's head. I don't know what to say about it but I wanted to mention it because I thought that it was funny.
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It really is! It's hard to picture these siblings ever finding anything approaching happiness, but that felt like a particularly awful outcome. An interesting outcome! But an agonising one.
Also shout-out to the hypocrisy of Andrew saying, "Unlike you, I would never make you do something you didn't want to." while he literally has a gun to Ashley's head.
That line also struck me! Hard to keep the moral high ground when you're holding her at gunpoint and she's still covered in bruises from the beating you gave her.