If Ithuriel Actually Would Be Derren Brown, However, Introduce Away.

[rionaleonhart]

There are probably quite a few things to be said about this episode, but all I can really say about it is asdjkahjhgjdgh fandom! Fandom leaping onto the screen! I would have preferred a slightly more clear definition of 'slash', as someone unfamiliar with the term could easily go away thinking it specifically means incest, and I know that some of you were made very uncomfortable by the references, but in all I was rather delighted; I do love being made fun of, and it didn't seem mean-spirited. Although that must have been really confusing for people who are not in fandom. Part of an episode written in our language! What madness is this?

Man, I can't just make a one-paragraph entry! What else can I say? I don't want to talk about unrelated topics outside the cut, because then people who haven't seen the Supernatural episode may try to comment and catch sight of the bit beneath the cut and be spoiled.

I KNOW: I SHALL TALK ABOUT ANGELIC DERREN BROWN. (I am attempting to write the fic about the adventures of Derren and Castiel. I just don't know what to do with it.) Sorry, people with no interest in Derren. Feel free to skip the rest of this entry.

I think that Derren is a dissident angel, but not one who wants to bring about the Apocalypse; just one who does not believe in God and does not carry out his orders if he doesn't feel like it. He doesn't dislike humanity; in fact, he absolutely loves it and spends far more time than his superiors realise on Earth. He has no plans to fall, which appears to be a conscious decision in the world of Supernatural; he likes his grace just where it is, thank you very much. Losing his angelic powers would make playing with humans much less fun. Disobedience, however, is punishable by death amongst angels, so if Derren isn't going to fall he has to keep his atheism and frequent excursions to inflict angelic weirdness upon unsuspecting humans very quiet. Possibly he can manipulate other angels into forgetting or deciding to leave him alone if he lets something slip.

Also, Derren probably has sex whilst he is in human form, which I am sure angels frown upon. What I am trying to work out is how he would treat the possessing-a-human-body aspect of it, because obviously having sex using a body one has possessed raises many uncomfortable moral questions. I don't think he would ignore the host's situation entirely, but I'm not sure he would go the possessing-a-corpse route. Perhaps he would in some way blank out the host's consciousness whilst doing things with which the host would probably be uncomfortable, which is still morally questionable but not entirely reprehensible. MUCH LIKE MOST OF DERREN BROWN'S ACTUAL WORK.

Derren-as-Ithuriel is definitely going onto my list of Characters Who Totally Exist In The Supernatural Universe, Good Luck Convincing My Mind Otherwise. Delaware Singer is the only other character on that list at the moment, but I am sure it will grow. (Now I just have to hope that Supernatural does not actually introduce an Ithuriel, because if they do and he is not Derren Brown I shall cry.)

Comments

[rionaleonhart]

He could be the sort of Trickster who is like 'well, personally, I don't believe in the existence of any gods, but I'm certainly not going to complain if other people wish to worship me as one'.

Ooh, I rather like this idea.

Atheistic angels are already canon on Supernatural! Uriel outright said 'there is no God' in 'On the Head of a Pin'.

[dracothelizard.livejournal.com]

I'm sure Derren feels slightly guilty about other people worshipping him, but not enough to tell them to stop.

"Atheistic angels are already canon on Supernatural! Uriel outright said 'there is no God' in 'On the Head of a Pin'."

Oh, well, it's still a bit weird.

[rionaleonhart]

It is a bit odd, especially as Uriel seemed to resent God for favouring humanity. How can you resent someone you don't believe exists, Uriel? (There are also the demons who don't appear to believe in God but believe that Lucifer was unjustly cast out of Heaven for disobeying him. Supernatural religion is confusing.)

[dracothelizard.livejournal.com]

The demonic religion is just WEIRD. You can't mock Christians if you believe the same thing as them, demons!

I also don't get how Dean could've doubted the existence of God. He uses holy water and other rites of the Catholic church on demons! And those work! Doesn't that sort of prove there's a God?

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

It's very hard to write about Derren Brown and sex without getting into dubious consent territory. I mean I'm sure that actual Derren Brown has actual sex of the fully-consensual-and-not-at-all-dubious variety. It's just that he's forever shown manipulating people in a way that's very much "Oh I will naturally and easily go along with whatever you're asking of me, and even want what you're telling me, and think it's what I wanted all along" (yes, I have seen the Simon Pegg bit), and it tends to leak into any sexual situations.

So I tend to end up mentally at "The host would be a volunteer, but that's after a nice long 'You'd quite like to volunteer, and don't mind if I have it off once in a while while in your body, right?' chat with Derren."

[rionaleonhart]

This is very true! (Making Derren into an angel was such a mistake. It's difficult enough trying to get around the ethical issues of Derren having sex at all without bringing possession into the mix.) Have you read Speak of the Devil by strangeumbrella? It has Derren worrying about these things and whether he can ever be completely certain that any sex he has is really consensual, even if he's not actively trying to manipulate anyone, which I thought was fascinating.

[rionaleonhart]

(Also, of course, the same problems arise if there's a 'you don't mind if I have it off once in a while' chat with the host: how can one be certain that Derren isn't manipulating the host's response?)

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

That's it exactly. Normally, talking to someone establishes consent, but with Derren Brown, the more he talks, the more the possibility is of manipulation coming into play.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I like it! Especially the "Kind of exciting?" line. Because the idea is (for many people), kind of hot, but the hotness diminishes when it gets to seem a little too real, and when it comes to something like sex with Derren Brown, someone going "Well obviously, he's not actually manipulating me" might find the idea hot to play around with while "I'm pretty sure I'm not actually manipulating him, but..." Derren would just find it disturbing.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Er, was there a reason he felt the need to actively deny getting sexual with his parrot?

And am I the only one reminded of the pre-coming-out interview where he got very intense and prone to explaining that yes, he did intend to marry a nice young woman someday, it was just not the right phase of his life for it?

[rionaleonhart]

...by drawing a comparison with that interview, are you implying that Derren Brown is suppressing his sexual attraction to parrots?

And, er, I don't think there was a particular reason. The interviewer just asked a rather vague 'what do you like?' question, and Derren said he liked his parrot and then added, 'Not - ' (giggling) ' - not in a wrong way.'

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

I'm just saying, it's a disturbing parallel.

And it's a bizarre thing to deny without it being specified. It's kind of like how Jeremy Clarkson will sometimes spontaneously, for no particular reason, insist he isn't gay, really. It could very well be meaningless, or mean something different, but it's a bit "Hmm...."

I think that in reality, Jeremy Clarkson just grew up with a lot of tastes and interests that were stereotyped as 'gay' by Yorkshire standards: he didn't play football, he liked the wrong kind of cars, he probably had insufficiently manly tastes in beer, etc. So possibly Derren's been repeatedly accused of being a parrotsexual to the point where he denies it even if it isn't asked?

[bubbles-san.livejournal.com]

Wait, wait, what??? What's this about fandom on the screen?

I believe I may have to watch this one as well, I suppose. Two episodes in a row, too- maybe I like this show more than I thought.

[rionaleonhart]

Hee! The episode is called 'The Monster at the End of This Book', if that makes it easier for you to find, and much of it is just Supernatural mocking itself and its writers and its fans.

[bubbles-san.livejournal.com]

I am already watching it!

I must say, I find the idea of characters turning up to confront the writers slightly alarming. I'd hate for my characters to turn up to confront me.

[cryforthemoon.livejournal.com]

Derren therefore could = Aziraphale? :D There needs to be wing!fic.

[rionaleonhart]

Derren Brown wingfic would be wonderful!

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Now I'm convinced that he'd hope for dramatic black ones, but his actual wings would be ginger.

[rionaleonhart]

Your comment pleases me greatly. He would be terribly embarrassed.

[bubl.livejournal.com]

morally questionable but not entirely reprehensible. MUCH LIKE MOST OF DERREN BROWN'S ACTUAL WORK.
:)

Oh Delaware <3 You need to write that Derren & Castiel story so I can add him to my list of Supernatural characters that are Totally Real and sort of make-believe.

[uk-sef.livejournal.com]

You can't mock Christians if you believe the same thing as them, demons!

It doesn't seem to work that way with woo-believers. Eg the Catholics dismissing Reiki as superstition and failing to see the irony and hypocrisy of their position (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/31/us-catholic-bishops-reiki). So, in that respect, the demons are being modelled quite well on real fantasists. The difference in the AU of the show of course is that much of the superstitious nonsense exists/works, unlike in reality.

[dracothelizard.livejournal.com]

"Reiki, an alternative Japanese therapy with a growing band of followers in the west, is "unscientific" and "inappropriate" for use in Catholic institutions, according to America's bishops."

...Catholics do not get to claim things are scientific or not. CATHOLICISM in itself is unscientific!

Also, aren't they a bit late with the whole 'reiki is bad!' thing, as reiki has been a thing in Western culture for quite some time.

[uk-sef.livejournal.com]

You can't really surprised that a bunch of bronze-age religionists are repeatedly behind the times, can you?!

[lasayla.livejournal.com]

ZOMG, this!

[lasayla.livejournal.com]

Angel!Derren doesn't play by the rules, so he doesn't necessarily need to abide by the 'only one body' and 'body vanishes when you leave' rules, right?

If he could find an existing couple and swap between them on an ad-hoc basis you could turn this from 'skeevy consent issues' to 'extremely complicated threesome'.

There needs to be an epic three fandom crossoverfic about a threesome where there are only two people involved, but at any moment, without warning, one of them could be Derren Brown. You'd have all the crackiness of your average bodyswap story, but with the added bonus of Amazing Mind Powers^TM and the Supernatural canon.

The only real question is which fandom the pre-existing couple should be yoinked from...