rionaleonhart | If Ithuriel Actually Would Be Derren Brown, However, Introduce Away.

There are probably quite a few things to be said about this episode, but all I can really say about it is asdjkahjhgjdgh fandom! Fandom leaping onto the screen! I would have preferred a slightly more clear definition of 'slash', as someone unfamiliar with the term could easily go away thinking it specifically means incest, and I know that some of you were made very uncomfortable by the references, but in all I was rather delighted; I do love being made fun of, and it didn't seem mean-spirited. Although that must have been really confusing for people who are not in fandom. Part of an episode written in our language! What madness is this?

Man, I can't just make a one-paragraph entry! What else can I say? I don't want to talk about unrelated topics outside the cut, because then people who haven't seen the Supernatural episode may try to comment and catch sight of the bit beneath the cut and be spoiled.

I KNOW: I SHALL TALK ABOUT ANGELIC DERREN BROWN. (I am attempting to write the fic about the adventures of Derren and Castiel. I just don't know what to do with it.) Sorry, people with no interest in Derren. Feel free to skip the rest of this entry.

I think that Derren is a dissident angel, but not one who wants to bring about the Apocalypse; just one who does not believe in God and does not carry out his orders if he doesn't feel like it. He doesn't dislike humanity; in fact, he absolutely loves it and spends far more time than his superiors realise on Earth. He has no plans to fall, which appears to be a conscious decision in the world of Supernatural; he likes his grace just where it is, thank you very much. Losing his angelic powers would make playing with humans much less fun. Disobedience, however, is punishable by death amongst angels, so if Derren isn't going to fall he has to keep his atheism and frequent excursions to inflict angelic weirdness upon unsuspecting humans very quiet. Possibly he can manipulate other angels into forgetting or deciding to leave him alone if he lets something slip.

Also, Derren probably has sex whilst he is in human form, which I am sure angels frown upon. What I am trying to work out is how he would treat the possessing-a-human-body aspect of it, because obviously having sex using a body one has possessed raises many uncomfortable moral questions. I don't think he would ignore the host's situation entirely, but I'm not sure he would go the possessing-a-corpse route. Perhaps he would in some way blank out the host's consciousness whilst doing things with which the host would probably be uncomfortable, which is still morally questionable but not entirely reprehensible. MUCH LIKE MOST OF DERREN BROWN'S ACTUAL WORK.

Derren-as-Ithuriel is definitely going onto my list of Characters Who Totally Exist In The Supernatural Universe, Good Luck Convincing My Mind Otherwise. Delaware Singer is the only other character on that list at the moment, but I am sure it will grow. (Now I just have to hope that Supernatural does not actually introduce an Ithuriel, because if they do and he is not Derren Brown I shall cry.)

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I'm not sure how, but I just misread Derren probably has sex whilst he is in human form as DERREN PROBABLY HAS SEX WITH ANIMALS.

HAVE A DISTURBING INTERVIEW QUOTE.

Derren: I like my parrot, Figaro. Not - not in a wrong way. I mean, yes, he'll do anything for a mouthful of seed, but nothing tacky.

The angels will definitely frown upon that.

What about possessing someone who is in a relationship already and having sex with their partner? Still not entirely ethical, but at least it's less of doing something the person might really not want to do.

"Why doesn't your parrot have feathers?"

"What, Figaro? He plucked them all out of himself."

"He plucked out his own feathers?! Have you taken him to a vet?"

"Several, yeah. They said he was fine."

"Birds don't normally do that, though!"

"Figaro does, when he's hungry. I caught him just staring at me once while I was eating, and then he started to slowly pluck them out. It was strange, I'll be honest."

"Your bird did a strip-tease for you?!"

"Well, it was more of a burlesque dance. There was some good music with it, too."

You've got to take the partner into account as well, in that case, though. Presumably the partner thinks s/he is having sex with the host, when in fact it's in large part the angel possessing him.

You alarm me.

Also, I may love you a bit.

But they'd be thinking that anyway, even if it was a one-night stand! And what if he accidentally possessed someone and made them go out for "anonymous" sex and it wound up being their boss or an old classmate, who'd go, "Wow, you were wild?" and the host would go, "I— I was? I mean, I guess I did all right at that meeting/the reunion was pretty fun..." and then there would be a very uncomfortable moment for all involved (except Derren, who could very well be far away and cackling madly).

Such is my life. There are two kinds of people in it: people who can stand being close to me so long as they go "LA LA LA I DID NOT HEAR YOU JUST TALK ABOUT BIRDS DOING NAKED DANCES" and people who go, "That's great! I'm going to stand over here, though, okay? Yes, just... six feet or so away. No, no, don't come with me."

Why assume possession is always a take control thing? Perhaps it could be a piggy-backing voyeuristic thing instead. Since it's all make-believe anyway, one gets to make up the magic rules to suit - exactly as all religious people do. So a non-coercive (while still not necessarily invited!) angel-possession might merely involve experiencing everything the human does but, at most, only be perceived by the host as a general sense of otherness being present - the sort of mental aberration to which humans are prone anyway (eg deja-vu and religion).

It's not the same if the one-night stand hasn't met the non-possessed host before, because in that case they've only spoken to the angel; the only aspect of the host that's involved, from their perspective, is his physical appearance.

Also, what angels seem to generally do is possess one body and then use that body for all their purposes on Earth, so the host would be possessed at all times (not sure what would happen when the angel wasn't on Earth; they seem to disappear, host body and all, when they leave) and there would be no awkward conversations (for the host, at any rate). If the host were thinking 'hey, that's my old boss', though, I'm sure Ithuriel would be able to pick up on that and avoid potentially uncomfortable sexual situations. (Or deliberately pursue them, just for his own amusement.)

Edited 2009-04-04 09:19 (UTC)

Well, that just seems sort of skeevy in its own right!

That could work. Perhaps Ithuriel could say 'all right, I'm going to release you for a while so you can spend time with your partner', and then lurk in the back of his host's mind.

Which part? (There is a general skeeviness about both Derren Brown and angels in Supernatural, so combining the two is likely to result in quite a lot of skeeve.)

(I should probably mention that angels in Supernatural - or Castiel, at least - possess devout humans who have prayed to be a vessel for an angel. Which makes things slightly less disturbing. Possibly.)

Slightly. But it's also a little disturbing that they want to give up their lives completely to them. (Like in Dollhouse!)

I think Supernatural is generally trying to make angels a little bit questionable. Which is a problem when I want to keep angelic!Derren's behaviour a step beneath 'completely inexcusable' whilst still keeping him both appropriately Derrenish and appropriately angelic.

It seems to be very much like the In Nomine FRP/RPG, in which both angels and demons are evil (by my standards).

If the writers were mean to the fandom, they were even meaner to themselves: I mean, they wrote themselves as a drunk with selfesteem issues, and they called some of their own writing bad.

I think that Derren Brown is better off as a Trickster than as an angel. It suits him better.

Absolutely! Wincest certainly wasn't the only thing being mocked in that episode.

I think Derren Brown is overall more Tricksterish, but angels seem to have Trickster-like powers, and if he's an angel I can write about him having adventures with Castiel, which could be rather fun.

What about Derren-the-Trickster making Castiel believe he was an angel?

Ooh, that could work! Probably not in the fic I'm writing, though, given their angel-to-angel theological conversations.

Well, no, but Derren-the-Trickster would still be a god, so there could still be theologicaly conversations, just slightly different! Plus, Castiel would feel guilt for talking to the wrong god.

It might be slightly difficult for Derren to be an atheist if he is a god. The Derren-the-Trickster fic certainly should be written, though. (So I've already written Derren-the-vampire, I'm writing Derren-the-angel, I'm considering Derren-the-Trickster... should there be an entire 'Derren as [insert supernatural being here]' series?)

He could be the sort of Trickster who is like 'well, personally, I don't believe in the existence of any gods, but I'm certainly not going to complain if other people wish to worship me as one'.

Wouldn't it also be slightly difficult for Derren to be an atheist if he's angel?

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If Ithuriel Actually Would Be Derren Brown, However, Introduce Away.

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