Now You're Just Some Programme That I Used To Know.

[rionaleonhart]

Some more notes on our Glee rewatch! We've gone through the third season and are now in early season four. I originally stopped watching at some point in late season four, I believe, so we're approaching uncharted territory. (But not Uncharted territory. I bet Nate can't sing.)

I love the extreme intensity with which Blaine performs. He's always so into it!

I think Kurt and Blaine may be the only couple in Glee who actually communicate about the problems in their relationship and find ways to resolve them. It's really noticeable in contrast to the other relationship plotlines.

(Their relationship becomes much less functional in season four, which has an early episode where the writers evidently went 'you know, I'm bored of the canonical couples; let's break up ALL OF THEM.')

Season three isn't my favourite (that would be season two), but I do love how much of it is devoted to Rachel becoming friends with everyone. She's come so far!

Blaine having an intense duet of 'Somebody That I Used to Know' with his brother is even weirder than I remember it. If they had an affair, it would explain why Blaine never talks about his brother.

Slightly shipping Quinn and Artie after Quinn's accident in this rewatch, which I wasn't expecting! Artie helping and encouraging her as she gets to grips with the chair is very endearing.

I like that friends in Glee are prepared to say 'I love you' to each other. I love the Kurt-and-Rachel dynamic so much; it's probably my favourite relationship in Glee. I got slightly tearful when Kurt showed up to surprise her at the start of season four, when she was alone and upset in the big city. Rachel's friendship storylines are so much more enjoyable than her romantic ones.


Season four of Glee introduces a bunch of new characters and then only gives them plotlines with each other, which strikes me as an odd choice. Sam and Blaine, in season two, were more successful character introductions because they actually interacted with the characters we already knew and cared about, rather than the show going 'now, after that scene with characters you know and care about, let's switch to a load of strangers!'

I'm pretty interested in what makes a late character introduction work or not work. Obviously, in some cases, such as Doctor Who or Waterloo Road, a general cycling of characters is expected and new characters don't really feel like latecomers. In canons where the cast is mainly static and then they throw in a new significant character, though, what determines whether I'll go 'ooh, I like you' (e.g. Nathaniel Plimpton of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, Blaine Anderson of Glee) or 'YOU'RE TOO LATE, THERE'S NO ROOM IN MY HEART' (e.g. Sam Drake of Uncharted, the new Glee kids of season four)?

I wonder whether it depends on how emotionally invested I am in the canon. I was having fun with Glee before Blaine showed up, but I wasn't really invested, so I could cheerfully embrace the new guy. The more I care about the existing characters, the more likely I am to resent new characters for taking screentime away from the ones I'm invested in.

I'd be interested in hearing about late-arrival characters that worked or didn't work for you!

Comments

[wolfy_writing]

That's interesting about late characters. I know I am a terrible audience for replacement characters. Like if they're stepping in to take the place of a character I like, I'm going to be a tough sell. I tend to like them better when the timing and character type are distinct from anyone who may be leaving.

[rionaleonhart]

I definitely found, when I was watching Doctor Who, that I struggled with Doctors who were replacing a Doctor I really liked. I loved Nine! Then I didn't like Ten. And I loved Eleven! Then I didn't like Twelve.

The 'replacement character' thought is an interesting one. Blaine in Glee was an entirely new character; he didn't fill anyone else's role. Meanwhile, a lot of the season four kids were introduced with comparisons to characters who have left the school; Marley is explicitly described as 'the new Rachel', Kitty is compared to Quinn, Jake is Puck's brother. They're not exactly the same as their predecessors in personality, but it does make me go 'hey, I loved Rachel and Quinn, and you guys can't live up to them'.

[wyomingsmustache]

They’ve done things like this a few times in MLP and every time I’ve been fully prepared to hate them on the grounds that they’re not the characters I’ve spent all this time investing in, but every time I get to be pleasantly surprised by how well they were handled. I think Starlight Glimmer was my least favorite of the new additions and that was just because she was a character type I’m predisposed to not liking, and I still DID warm to her pretty quickly. And the Young Six are my children and I actually wish we’d got to spend MORE time with them

I think the biggest factor with me is how well they merge with the established cast and whether their addition feels natural. In RWBY we added a few new characters in volume four because the world had just gotten a lot bigger, but they were written into the story organically instead of just showing up- we were introduced to the big bad, naturally she was going to have minions beyond the couple we’d already met. We spent a whole season occasionally jumping over to Oscar while he made his way to join the group but his scenes were few and far between enough that it didn’t feel like we were ignoring the other four stories happening around him.

I guess it comes down to whether the character is integrated into the story naturally or whether they take it over. MLP didn’t become the Starlight Glimmer show after she was introduced, she just became a new source of stories and a new way to look at friendship. On the flipside, Clover was introduced and now he’s the only person Qrow interacts with, and I can’t wait for him to either die or reveal himself as a traitor so Qrow can go back to interacting with, you know, other people. And so the shippers will be upset but that’s the spite talking

[rionaleonhart]

I should really go back and watch the rest of Friendship Is Magic at some point! It was such an enjoyable show, and it's great to hear its character introductions after the point I watched up to were well-handled.

Clover was introduced and now he’s the only person Qrow interacts with, and I can’t wait for him to either die or reveal himself as a traitor so Qrow can go back to interacting with, you know, other people.

Oh, wow, yes, that sounds really frustrating.

[(Anonymous)]

Some interesting points here!

I never got into Glee, in fact I always thought the concept was really stupid and was probably a bit superior about it. I don't really understand why; I am a massive fan of musical theatre and Glee certainly shares some aspects of that. Might have been that as far as I know it mostly used pop songs, and that is a different skillset to musical songs, for me, or possibly the school setting? Either way, I remember it being much talked about and me being all "Glee, bleh" about it.

The late character introduction debate is intriguing.

Obviously, in some cases, such as Doctor Who or Waterloo Road, a general cycling of characters is expected and new characters don't really feel like latecomers.

I'm a Doctor Who fan, though more of the Classic series than the New one. It's funny actually, because I feel that in New Who you tend to feel the presence/absence of characters more due to the differences to the old series. For one, it does the very modern thing where, for the most part, actors are hide for seasons, therefore new companion in episode 1, and ending in the last episode of a season (and a seasonal plot can be built around this etc, etc, there's less focus on things just being stand alone). In the Classic series, it was fairly common for companions (and sometimes even Doctors!) to leave mid series and sometimes even mid serial, which I also felt has far more shock value, but also creates more natural flow although it lacks that ability for season arcs etc. I think the closest thing to a plot "arc" in the classic series was the Trial of a Time Lord series (all overarching story), and the Black Guardian trilogy, which was three linked episodes. (It's also my favourite introduction story of any Doctor Who companion - here is your new companion, who needs to kill the Doctor. Arc!). Additionally, particularly in the 60s, there were a lot of episodes (at maximum, there were 45 new episodes of Doctor Who in 1965) and so occasionally main characters like the Doctor just wouldn't appear in a few episodes or would do so very minimally to give the actors a break/some holiday time! Anyway, I've digressed a bit. Moving mid-season to me also made it less of a big deal, and more naturally accepting of a change, although you also felt the "presence" of characters less back then due to differences in characterisation, focus etc.

(-cough- Stand down, Doctor Who geek!)

I'm trying to think of other canons with late character introductions.

I'm currently playing Trails of Cold Steel 3 and I guess it kind of applies? Same protagonist, but the remainder of the main cast of the first 2 games are shuffled into more of a supporting role, while several mostly new characters take focus. I wasn't sure how I'd find this, but I really like them. It probably helps that there's less of them so I can get a stronger sense of them (I wasn't massively emotionally invested in the other characters, and tended to use people more out of convenience of how useful they were in battle), and for the most part they aren't trying to repeat character dynamics.

I guess Avatar does it with Toph? Again, I suppose the reason it works for me is that she brings such a different character dynamic - I think what I don't like is repeating or muscling in on another character pointlessly, if that makes sense.

Quantum Leap is effectively a series of setpieces - you only have a continuing cast of 2, and Sam is constantly bouncing off different characters and having to play different roles, so sometimes the only real visual similarity between episodes is Al. You had to like a cycling cast or you wouldn't like the show - people are basically playing out a tiny chunk of time/lives.

The original (1960s) Dark Shadows operated almost like a theatre troop. Again, to like that show, you had to be okay with change as the focus shifted quite a bit over time. Over the course of its run, it replaced several actors (some of main roles). Later in its run, it could be reasonably described as a theatre troupe. The show started exploring time travel storylines, and to do this they kept primarily the same cast, and simply had them play their own ancestors. This meant you didn't need to get new people in, and you could kill off your favourite actors as many times as you liked and still bring them back as another character! In time travel arcs, it was fairly common for nearly everybody except those who had to survive to have decendents to be killed off. The fondness for possession/"influenced" style plotlines also meant that in the present day actors could end up finding themselves playing another character playing at being their character. They got loads of mileage and fun out of it. Characters coming and going were fairly common, both as new additions to the "troupe" or returning cast members. I guess the continuing influx is part of what makes most of the character intros work? (Most, not all!).

Played anymore AI, btw? I am very invested in your thoughts!

-timydamonkey

[(Anonymous)]

which was three linked episodes

I mean serials! I make the distinction and then don't stay consistent with it.

troop

troupe. I know how to spell, I just didn't proofread and my hands went on the automatic "type it as it sounds". Probably doesn't help that I was looking at the word "troops" several times today!

[rionaleonhart]

Glee is pretty silly, I'll be honest, although at least it's often aware of how silly it is. It includes a fair few songs from musicals and other non-pop genres, actually! Its covers can be a bit variable, or cleave so closely to the original that I'm left wondering 'why did you bother covering this if you weren't going to do anything new with it?', and its plot is incredible non-stop bullshit, but it's definitely entertaining.

I'd forgotten about Toph! She's a great character introduction, although I'd heard of her from other fans before I reached her episode, so I knew to expect her. I wonder if I'd have received her differently if I hadn't been prepared for a new member of the team.

I've got the Ota and Mizuki ends, and I've started exploring the plot branch when you get the balloon resolution to Mizuki's Somnium! I'll probably make another entry in the next few days.

[thenicochan]

A couple commenters mentioned dynamic and the replacement of other characters, and there could definitely be something to that. I'm trying to think of some examples of late-comers and how I felt about them. Hm... okay, I have a few that I felt different ways about:

Max was introduced in S2 of Stranger Things after the dynamic among the kids had been pretty well established. It felt like she didn't really have much to do, and the story wouldn't have really changed without her. I didn't hate her, but I felt sort of... ambivalent about her inclusion. I liked that we had another female character, but she felt somewhat pointless. It wasn't until the third season gave her stuff to do that she really started to grow on me, and now I am pretty fond of her.

Vega was the weird new squadmate in Mass Effect 3. After two games with some wonderful teammates I'd grown to love, going into the next game with a character who the narrative posed as your new best friend, who we'd never met before, was a little... odd. It was made worse when characters like Miranda, who were vital to the previous game, were not made squadmates despite the plot tripping over itself to not let her join you for really dumb reasons. While I don't think he has the memorability of the characters from the previous games, he had a good dynamic with the other characters and ended up being pretty likable.

King of the Hill introduced 'Lucky', played by Tom Petty, at the end of the eighth season. He went on to marry a main character and get way too many storylines. I couldn't stand him and I still don't. Lucky-centric episodes are the ones that are skipped on rewatches. He didn't mesh well with the dynamic established by the rest of the previous cast, he was frustrating to watch, and he got more and more screentime than his wife-- who was a fan favorite and very important part of the DNA of the series. I felt like his introduction was a major detriment to the series as a whole.

[rionaleonhart]

I'm sorry for the late response! But it's really interesting to hear about how differently you responded to these characters.

going into the next game with a character who the narrative posed as your new best friend, who we'd never met before, was a little... odd.

Oh, that sounds frustrating, particularly in the last game of a series. I think it's a large part of my problem with Sam Drake; Uncharted 4 was the final game for a lot of characters I really cared about, and it went 'HEY, HERE'S YOUR BROTHER, HE'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO YOU, YOU'RE HAVING ADVENTURES WITH HIM' and I was left going 'but... Nate doesn't have a brother?? There has not been a single mention of the protagonist having siblings in the last three games??'

[enemyofperfect]

I wonder whether it depends on how emotionally invested I am in the canon. I was having fun with Glee before Blaine showed up, but I wasn't really invested, so I could cheerfully embrace the new guy. The more I care about the existing characters, the more likely I am to resent new characters for taking screentime away from the ones I'm invested in.

I think this pattern holds for me too, and maybe even applies to more than just characters. Like recently I was talking about a show whose first two seasons I loved deeply, but that really went downhill in season three -- except that's really a huge oversimplification. The later seasons brought in a great f/f pairing and heavier science fiction themes, which are both things that I love in in their own right! It's just that the show was no longer doing the same things I'd loved so much to begin with, and I felt the loss of that too much to fully appreciate the new things it was doing instead.

(I am really trying to come up with a premise for a Glee/Uncharted crossover now. I guess there's no reason Cassie can't be interested in musical theater! It could be kind of fun to set Nate and Elena's completely different brand of shenanigans against the romantic drama of the Glee adults...)

[alaterdate]

I think from the animes I watched and games I played I got used to the kinds of stories where they just keep picking up new friends. Sometimes the old ones drop off (or die), but the new characters aren't exactly replacement characters. I can see how it'd be frustrating to come across characters explicitly meant to replace the others (they will probably never live up to the originals). In games like Fire Emblem (anime chess) I look forward to the new characters who are going to appear. Then again I know beforehand that new characters are going to show up, so maybe I save space in my heart for them 🤔

Relatedly, I hate Sam Drake. Cannot stand the guy. He's the skeeziest character in the whole series and I was waiting the entire time for him to betray Nathan. Whenever there was a part where he was like "let me go first" I thought, Oh, here it comes. He's stranding me here. The bastard I knew it. Of course, H— then he came back, but I was still suspicious.

[rionaleonhart]

I'm sorry for the late response! But it warms my heart to hear about people hating Sam Drake, who is the worst. I found him slightly more bearable in The Lost Legacy, but only because Nadine hated him twice as much as I did; I resented his presence less when he spent most of his screentime just getting dunked on relentlessly by the protagonists.

There's a surprising amount of Sam Drake/You, The Reader fanfiction, so I suppose he must have found his audience somewhere! But I didn't like him at all, and I couldn't make myself believe Nate had a brother when there hadn't been a single mention of siblings in the previous games.

[alaterdate]

He's not a guy Nate needs in his life! It was definitely cathartic in The Lost Legacy to finally have someone in-game really hating his guts. I was hoping he'd die lol. He didn't need to be in that game either!

I was surprised at that too! He's so skeezy what on earth is appealing about him? I don't know why they decided he needed a "secret" brother, but they could have handled the reveal better. For instance I think the little adventure in the prison was a mistake. Would have made more sense if Sam abandoned Nate early on in life and Nate assumed him dead then so never talked about him. They had him "die" too late imo. There's no reason Nathan wouldn't have told Elena about his brother if he had to go "save" him like the game paints. Would have made more sense for him to be sneaky about it if it was just another adventure and perhaps he did tell Elena that was his brother and she saw how damn skeezy he appears and was like "Nathan, no" (though I don't think she'd ever actually stop him from adventuring really). Sam would still suck tho, he just sucks.

[amovingtarget]

Now that you've got me thinking about it, I feel like I'm a pretty soft sell on new characters, as long as the show gives me something to like about them in their own right, or I can find it on my own.

I loved Sam Drake, more so when The Lost Legacy came around. Who else is there, let me think... I don't believe it was tough for me with Doctor Who, though I was always a bit sad coming up to the last episodes of the current roster. I consider Sameen Shaw a latecomer to Person of Interest but looking it up it wasn't as late as I thought (season 2 episode 16). Kitty Winter and Mycroft Holmes in Elementary although they're not in very many episodes, iirc, and Call the Midwife brings in new replacement characters a fair amount, and I always end up liking them more than I expected to.

[pict]

Late arrivals I've enjoyed: Vega from Mass Effect, because of how nice it was to see a decorated soldier like Shepard in a mentor position, as well as just being a good dude (and voiced by Freddie Prinze Jr.! and having a cute flirtship with Ashley!); Haru from Persona 5, who is pretty disadvantaged by arriving into the story at the absolute last possible moment but manages to capture my heart regardless.

Late arrivals I've not particularly appreciated: Ashley Seaver from Criminal Minds. I don't think she technically counts considering she debuted around season, um, seven? Of a TV show I think is in its fourteenth season now? honestly i don't know and i can't be bothered to check. But in addition to being added after my fave character was removed by network orders, she was the most blatant example of bad character shilling I've ever seen - she's given a tragic past that directly ties into the situation the BAU is in, and then behaves in a remarkably unprofessional way and nearly gets herself killed, all the while we're supposed to believe she's incredibly competent and a profiling prodigy. I wasn't upset when she was abruptly written off after ten episodes.

I stopped watching Criminal Minds when the clever cases were replaced by shock value body horror in every episode, but I do remember the later members of the BAU getting weaker and weaker introductions. At one point, the tech character goes on a paragraph-long exposition drop about Jeanne Tripplehorn seconds before she sashays her way into the cast. Sometimes I think about picking it up again, because I love both Daniel Henney and Aisha Tyler, and I'd like to see their characters. Maybe one day!