But What Are Their Thoughts On Incest?

[rionaleonhart]

Why is Sam always dominant in Sam/Dean fanfiction? Seriously, there are great big 'CAUTION: IMPLIED BOTTOM!SAM' warnings plastered all over fic that breaks this trend. Sam always seems to be the one who initiates the relationship shift, too, and the one who's more at ease with it. It can't just be because he's tall, surely? ...it's just because he's tall, isn't it?

All right, that's unfair of me; I'm just interested in why the idea of dominant, totally-okay-with-the-brothersex Sam is so prevalent in the Supernatural fandom, because it's not the way in which Sam/Dean works in my mind. I can see Dean having issues with it, of course, because he'd be keen to hold onto his heterosexual self-image (part of the reason the popularity of bottom-Dean surprises me; I can't see him taking what I'm sure he would think of as 'the girl's role' without a fight) and concerned about hurting Sam (and I'd say Dean's concern for his brother's mental and emotional well-being is the single largest obstacle to Wincest). But I imagine that Dean would probably be more at ease with the actual concept of incest, because he's embraced the fact that the Winchesters are Different, they are Not Like Other People, and he's so obsessed with his family that I don't think the idea of letting anyone else into his life has even occurred to him; if he wants anything remotely approaching a long-term romantic or sexual relationship, Sam is his only option. I can even see him thinking of that as obvious. "Of course my brother's the only person I could ever have more than a one-night stand with, pfft. Girls don't exist for more than two days."

Sam, though, Sam (for the first series, at least) has delusions that maybe one day he could find a nice girl, settle down, have a normal life. He doesn't view himself and his brother as being separate from the 'real world' in the way in which Dean does, and so he's less likely to think 'well, we're not part of society, so why should society's taboos matter?' I think that the concept of an incestuous relationship would freak him out far more than it would Dean, who is better able to handle the crazy.

I'm not saying 'THE ENTIRE SUPERNATURAL FANDOM IS WRONG', obviously; these are just my thoughts, how it works in my head, and I'd be very happy to hear another fan's perspective. I'm not quite half-way through Series Two yet, so there's a fair chance that episodes I have not yet seen may completely disprove the ideas I've built up about the Winchester brothers.

And 'Croatoan' broke my heart into a million billion tiny pieces, by the way. Just so you know.

Comments

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. Not Dean actually killing himself (for some reason, my mind keeps going to 'failed suicide attempt' which might be implausible given all his guns and training at shooting), but completely going to pieces.

I hadn't thought about Sam trying to be comforting but making things worse. How does that work?

[rionaleonhart]

...it makes sense in my head, but I find myself incapable of expressing how, gah! Perhaps Sam's attempts to go 'look, Dean, it's all right, you don't have to beat yourself up about this, it wasn't you' frustrate Dean because he feels that he's making it more difficult for Sam to get over what happened; if Sam has to put on an 'everything's fine' act to help Dean, it means that he doesn't have the time to come to terms with it himself.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I could see that. Dean's complete inability to cope would make it harder for Sam. And Dean would know that, and feel worse.

It sounds like it could be brilliantly angsty and horrible.

[draegonhawke.livejournal.com]

Dean's grown up with Military Discipline FTW, too. And in that schema, you do something wrong, You Get Punished. If there's no backlash there, he's got no sense of completion and can't just get over it. (I imagine he'd go out and do patently stupid things like trying to heroically sacrifice himself to save Sam from something as soon as the opportunity presented itself.)

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

That fits so well. Dean throwing himself recklessly into dangerous situations so he can get killed fighting evil and saving Sam. Because in his mind, that would be a way to get payback and balance the scales. And it works as an attempt to kills himself in a, "What me, suicidal? Don't be ridiculous!" fashion.

ETA: It would be a bad idea to start jumping up and down and shouting, "Riona, write this!" wouldn't it?

[rionaleonhart]

DON'T MAKE ME USE MY WEIRD TABLE-TURNING MIND POWERS ON YOU.

Or, on second thoughts, do.



I am actually sort of tempted. But augh, writing noncon? I don't know.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Well, it's an open question of exactly how much would happen, and how non-con it would be.

On the How much would happen? front, even if Sam stopped it before actual sex happened, it'd still be fairly traumatic for Sam ("My possessed brother tried to rape me" is less traumatic than, "My possesed brother raped me," but still BAD) and enough to inflict horrifying levels of guilt on Dean.

On how non-con, I'm not sure, but maybe something that was more like heavy pressuring than an out-and-out attack? And Sam went along because part of him kind of wanted it?

Of course that would result in crushing levels of guilt for both of them.

[rionaleonhart]

Of course that would result in crushing levels of guilt for both of them.

Upon reading this sentence, I found myself smiling in an entirely involuntary and incredibly evil way. STOP RELISHING WINCHESTER-TORTURE, SELF.

Man, that would be horrible. And incredibly fascinating.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

See, if you wrote it, you could inflict horrible torture on both of them. And then have them go completely to pieces (the only thing I've seen of angsty Sam is not-sleeping and fake cheeriness; Dean would totally pull the, "Throw myself in danger and try to get killed" thing). And you could make it incredibly fascinating and lure more people into horrendously fascinating angsty Wincest.

[draegonhawke.livejournal.com]

I second this, Riona. (And your turning-the-tables mind powers will not work on me, as I don't particularly write slash, incest, OR sex non-con or otherwise! Muahaha!)

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Prod her specifically, so she doesn't just turn around and make me do it.

[draegonhawke.livejournal.com]

Riooooona. We appear to be united against you. (But it's really for you, as we all know that tortuous fanfiction is good for the soul.)

[draegonhawke.livejournal.com]

Also, you know, with the demon? You said it first (http://rionaleonhart.livejournal.com/122730.html#cutid1).

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

True. This is all Riona's fault. She owes us fic.

[draegonhawke.livejournal.com]

Or, Sam could just not resist, either because he knows he can't win, he wants to make it as easy on Dean as he can, or throwing off the demon would hurt Dean.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

If Sam didn't fight back in order to not hurt Dean, and Dean knew this, that would be torturous levels of angst!

[draegonhawke.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes. That'd pretty nearly drive him to madness.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

I have to go watch more Supernatural now, so I can work out more torturous things to do to the Winchesters. And decide if that think I know about in S2, but haven't actually seen (I haven't been watching ahead, except for Mystery Spot), would be a good reason to send Dean to Silent Hill.

[draegonhawke.livejournal.com]

...you need a reason to send people to Silent Hill?

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

No, but if you can find one, it makes the trip more satisfying.

Seriously, what's more appealing; Dean going, "Holy crap, monsters!", or tormented, wracked-by-guilt Dean going, "Holy crap, monsters!"?

For some reason, in my brain, Dean tries to convince himself he's not scared of Pyramid Head by singing, "Triangle Man," to himself every time he sees him.

[rionaleonhart]

I cannot think of that song without my brain completely Silent Hill-ifying it.

Triangle man, triangle man,
Triangle man hates particle man,
They have a fight, triangle wins,
Particle man must repent for his sins...

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

If I write this fic, can I steal that? Because I like the idea of Dean wandering around, being all, "I'm not scared," by singing Triangle Man whenever he saw Pyramid Head, and getting the words wrong in an entirely creepy fashion he didn't realize until he found himself singing it.

He would also spend the entire fic thinking of Pyramid Head as Triangle Man, because Pyramid Head doesn't come with a name badge.

[rionaleonhart]

You are welcome to steal it! And it would make me very happy if you did write it.

The thought of Pyramid Head being referred to as 'Triangle Man' throughout an entire fic amuses me far too much.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I have to work my way through Season Two, first. I think it would fit better after a certain event which I know of, but haven't watched properly, and before a certain other event.

I saw a picture of a Pyramid Head sparrow at the Silent Hill Capslock community. It made me laugh far too much.