But What Are Their Thoughts On Incest?

[rionaleonhart]

Why is Sam always dominant in Sam/Dean fanfiction? Seriously, there are great big 'CAUTION: IMPLIED BOTTOM!SAM' warnings plastered all over fic that breaks this trend. Sam always seems to be the one who initiates the relationship shift, too, and the one who's more at ease with it. It can't just be because he's tall, surely? ...it's just because he's tall, isn't it?

All right, that's unfair of me; I'm just interested in why the idea of dominant, totally-okay-with-the-brothersex Sam is so prevalent in the Supernatural fandom, because it's not the way in which Sam/Dean works in my mind. I can see Dean having issues with it, of course, because he'd be keen to hold onto his heterosexual self-image (part of the reason the popularity of bottom-Dean surprises me; I can't see him taking what I'm sure he would think of as 'the girl's role' without a fight) and concerned about hurting Sam (and I'd say Dean's concern for his brother's mental and emotional well-being is the single largest obstacle to Wincest). But I imagine that Dean would probably be more at ease with the actual concept of incest, because he's embraced the fact that the Winchesters are Different, they are Not Like Other People, and he's so obsessed with his family that I don't think the idea of letting anyone else into his life has even occurred to him; if he wants anything remotely approaching a long-term romantic or sexual relationship, Sam is his only option. I can even see him thinking of that as obvious. "Of course my brother's the only person I could ever have more than a one-night stand with, pfft. Girls don't exist for more than two days."

Sam, though, Sam (for the first series, at least) has delusions that maybe one day he could find a nice girl, settle down, have a normal life. He doesn't view himself and his brother as being separate from the 'real world' in the way in which Dean does, and so he's less likely to think 'well, we're not part of society, so why should society's taboos matter?' I think that the concept of an incestuous relationship would freak him out far more than it would Dean, who is better able to handle the crazy.

I'm not saying 'THE ENTIRE SUPERNATURAL FANDOM IS WRONG', obviously; these are just my thoughts, how it works in my head, and I'd be very happy to hear another fan's perspective. I'm not quite half-way through Series Two yet, so there's a fair chance that episodes I have not yet seen may completely disprove the ideas I've built up about the Winchester brothers.

And 'Croatoan' broke my heart into a million billion tiny pieces, by the way. Just so you know.

Comments

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'd see Sam as more of a bottom, but Dean as the one who'd have the biggest issues with incest. Like you said, Dean seems like the one who'd have the most issues with masculinity and heterosexuality, and have the hardest time dealing with being penetrated.

I'd see Dean as having a harder time with the incest thing precisely because of the potential to hurt Sam; Dean's the older brother, and I have the impression that he did a lot of looking after Sam when they were growing up (John doesn't strike me as a guy who'd provide regular babysitting and make sure the kids had lunches ready every morning). Which means him initiating or participating has much more of an air of abuse, or at least worrying power imbalances. Whereas Sam, the kid brother, isn't going to feel like he's pressuring or taking advantage of Dean as much.

Sort of how I see family dynamics. I get what you mean about Dean's Winchesters Are Different thing, and Sam not buying into it as much. In my mind, the potential for abuse of power, and Dean worrying about what he might be doing to his brother, outweigh that.

[rionaleonhart]

That's why I said that Dean's Sam-protectiveness is the largest obstacle to get over, really: I don't think that the incest itself would bother Dean as much as it would bother Sam, but if he became aware of how much it was troubling Sam he'd back off immediately.

Maybe I just prefer Dean as the initiator because I love Wincesty angst, and Dean is going to be pretty seriously distressed if he realises he was doing something that Sam didn't want. (Sam wouldn't want to hurt Dean either, of course, but I don't think he would handle the realisation quite so badly.)

Basically, screwed-upness is fun.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean about the angst; realizing he'd pushed Sam into something he wasn't comfortable with would hit Dean so hard. While Sam would keep more perspective, and be a bit, "Why didn't you say something if you didn't like it?" (In my mind, the only scenarios where one of them would express discomfort, and the other one wouldn't completely back off right away, involve demonic possession.)

I just can't get my mind past Dean's whole, "I can't risk hurting my brother like that." Which is probably good.

Screwed-upness is fun.

[rionaleonhart]

I can sort of get past it, just because Dean doesn't always think his actions through, but you're right; it is still a fairly large problem.

(In my mind, the only scenarios where one of them would express discomfort, and the other one wouldn't completely back off right away, involve demonic possession.)

The thought of this just makes me want to cry. Oh, Winchesters. I love them so much, and that would be so horrible.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

The thought of this just makes me want to cry. Oh, Winchesters. I love them so much, and that would be so horrible.

And considering the number of demons intent on horribly traumatizing them, unpleasantly plausibly (although I suspect this is a fandom cliche.)

If Dean did something to Sam while possessed, I think you would have to put him on suicide watch.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Also, off on a challenge, what would you think of a remix challenge at TGS? Where people volunteered their fic, and someone else on the com wrote remixes? I thought it might be interesting, and wanted to get a few people's opinions before suggesting anything to the mods.

Interest? Concern? Overwhelmed by the awesome? Immediately thinking of that one story you really hope no one writes a remix for?

[rionaleonhart]

I think it's an interesting idea! I don't know whether I'd sign up or not, though; I'd like to see my fic remixed, but I don't know whether I'd be able to trust myself to manage my assignment.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Cool. It might be worth talking to Anzari, then. See what she thinks.

[loz]

Oh wow! When I get my stuff together, I was going to do the remix at 1973flashfic. :D Great minds.

[denorios.livejournal.com]

You know what I say? It's fanfic, let 'em both initiate it whenever the writer feels like! I mean, in canon terms any wincest story is automatically AU anyway, so who cares? Right?

Ha. There's me, sitting on the fence there! In all honesty, I can see both Dean and Sam being the initiators in different circumstances. Yeah, Sam is, or perceives himself to be, almost a normal person in abnormal circumstances, whereas Dean has completely embraced the fact that neither they nor their lives are normal, so yeah, Dean might be more open to the idea. And I think Dean needs Sam more than Sam needs Dean - that sounds silly, because if this show has shown anything it's that these boys are incapable of living with the other, but Sam can live that normal life, whereas Dean can't. Dean only ever had three things in his life - his dad, his brother and his car. Sam had a life, friends, an education - he may never go back to that, but he could.

But then I think Dean would perceive it as abuse or taking advantage of Sam - protecting Sam is hardwired into Dean's brain as 'Imperative A1' and I think he'd a difficult time getting around that. So I really don't know. I could one initiating as much as the other, so I don't see why people can't write both.

[rionaleonhart]

Oh, people are welcome to write both! I am totally not trying to dictate how people should be writing Wincest here; I still read and enjoy fics in which Sam is the initiator. I'm just curious about why one is so much more popular than the other. And I think that this comment does help me understand; I agree that Dean needs Sam more - which might, of course, make him very hesitant to do anything that might damage the bond between them - and you're right about his obsession with protecting Sam.

[denorios.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I didn't mean you were trying to dictate what people wrote! Sorry! I just meant I don't understand why there is a predominance of one being top etc since it's fanfic and it's never going to be contradicted by canon (sadly) so why don't people write both? Sorry, I wasn't very clear there.

[the-funmonkey.livejournal.com]

I think it's just a convenient way of getting round the 'abuse' angle, seeing as Dean was the one who petty much raised Sam (the question of whether Dean was 'raised' at all is...contentious). If you're going for the non-angst angle then Sam being the initiator is pretty much the only way you could do that without veering too wildly out of character.

Oh, Croatoan! Dean's whole "I'm tired, Sammy" speech just, NNGH, MY HEART.

[rionaleonhart]

That's very true; having Sam initiate raises fewer worrying issues. It's easy to forget that not everyone is interested in Sam/Dean largely because of the potential for angst.

YES. And the fact that Sam is so clearly the only thing he has to live for. OH, DEAN.

Completly OT

[dancesontrains.livejournal.com]

I has a present (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_lounge/677385.html) for you :D

[wanttobeatree.livejournal.com]

I used to find bottom!Dean popularity a bit surprising too. And then I saw Mystery Spot, and it converted me 100%. Sam is the toppingest top that ever topped in Mystery Spot, seriously.

[rionaleonhart]

"EAT YOUR BREAKFAST." You have a point there.

[wanttobeatree.livejournal.com]

Exactly, man. He didn't quite add "-WHILST I BEND YOU OVER THE TABLE AND TAKE YOU FROM BEHIND," but it was a close thing.

[dracothelizard.livejournal.com]

Huh, I figured Sam would be bottom since he's the younger, prettier one. And because I saw icons of him looking weepy, and figured 'well, he's obviously the weepy, pretty, young bottom in that relationship with Dean being the butch macho manly man'. Look at that, I was wrong!

But then again, my conclusions are drawn from Mystery Spot and fannish osmosis :/.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

I had the same thing; my first impression was that Sam would be the one everyone decided was the bottom, because he was younger, more likely to get visibly upset an weepy, and more likely to do what Dean said than the other way around.

And it turned out to be completely the opposite. Which is kind of cool, because I like it when the guy who reads less like a weepy-uke cliche to me bottoms (I'm weird that way), but kind of weird it the way 'Fandom has decided that this one guy is always the bottom' tends to be.

[thorne-scratch.livejournal.com]

Mm. Honestly, I think part of it has to do with end of season two and beginning of season three. But that ventures into spoiler-land! So, I'll just wait until you've seen it all.

Also, I dunno if this has anything to do with it, but I've always thought that where a person comes into the series has an impact on their topping-bottom mentality (and characterization in general). There are folks who got into the most recent episode and work backwards; there are people who start chronologically at the beginning; there are those who just skip randomly!

And this sounds dumbest of all, but I think reading fanfiction beforehand has the biggest effect. I mean, that's how a lot of people get into it-- by reading stuff ahead of time, and deciding to get into the show that way, and a lot of the better stuff was Sam-top and Dean-bottom, which just sort of built upon itself.

And then I have all these vague theories on the appeal of incest to people-- whether you like it because of the dirtybadwrong feel or in spite of it, and that's how preferences for top-bottom develop. And theories about how favorite characters tend to get put on the bottom, or whatever, but I need to get back to work!

[rionaleonhart]

Thank you very much for keeping me out of spoiler-land! I suppose the lesson here is 'don't attempt meta before you've actually watched what you're talking about'.

The point about where a person comes into a series having an effect on characterisation views is an interesting one; I started watching whatever scattered episodes I could find before I bought the DVDs and settled down to watch it chronologically, and I think I probably do think of Sam and Dean and their relationship slightly differently because I didn't start at the beginning. And the fanfiction explanation makes a lot of sense; that hadn't occurred to me.

If you ever have the time to expand on your appeal-of-incest theories, I'd be very interested! I adore Sam and Dean's non-sexual relationship, so the entire point of adding a sexual aspect - for me, at least - is the dirtybadwrong.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

I'd also be interested in your incest theories. Incest doesn't exactly appeal to me, and I definitely don't find it hot, but I have general morbid fascination with doing horrible things to characters, and am interested in incest fic to the extent that it fits with that.

Sort of. Not if it fits neatly into a standard abuser/abused dynamic, but if it's screwed up in a complicated way. Which was why Riona was the perfect person to get me to actually read incest fic.

And then I went to read the Wincest com, and was bored senseless. Because it's mostly happy, well-adjusted, not screwed up in the slightest (and oddly enough, bothers me more than the screwed-up stuff).

As for bottoming, I know I tend to favor two things; the guy who doesn't fit the girly cliche, and the character I identify with the most. Which, er, yeah, Dean Winchester (although in practical terms, I'm more like Sam; can't shoot pool, and did nearly as well on my LSAT).

[bbakerb.livejournal.com]

I actually think it's to do with people not wanting to do the (perhaps stereotypical) thing of 'guy who spends all the time telling the world how macho he is always tops'. Also there is the fact that there is nothing nothing nothing that Dean wouldn't do for Sam.

I, er, will point you to this illuminating poll (http://sevenfists.livejournal.com/124341.html) and the ficlet inspired by it (http://intimations.org/fanfic/supernatural/options.html) by astolat.

[rionaleonhart]

I suppose, when I think about it, I don't really know anything about who tends to be written as dominant in most fandoms and why, because most of the time I don't read smut. The Supernatural fandom, however, is unavoidably full of smut; many of the fics may be amazing and gigantic and plotty, but you can bet with reasonable confidence that at some point in any given Supernatural fic there's going to be a graphic sex scene. So I've never noticed top/bottom roles before, and now that I've come across them I suppose they're not really what I expected.

Don't mind me; I'm just thinking aloud. (Also: there is nothing nothing nothing that Dean wouldn't do for Sam - so true.)

And thank you for the links! The poll and the responses to it are indeed most illuminating, and that ficlet is rather brilliant.